Discussion:
USGP 2024 -Teflon underpants ?
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Geoff
2024-10-20 21:26:01 UTC
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VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....

Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.

How does that work ?
--
geoff
pP85PrR
2024-10-20 21:43:09 UTC
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Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It would seem that Zak Brown wasn't quite right when he told Lando that
he (Lando) had been ahead at the apex. If Max was ahead, then it was --
apparently -- up to Lando to back out of the pass.

I think it was Martin in his commentary who suggested that it might have
been better for Lando to have given the position back and then tried
another pass later. Although he also noted that Lando came close to
gaining the five seconds that would have still put in ahead of Max.

But there did seem to be some discrepancy in the rulings when a car was
forced off track. Hard to tell just from the limited angles that the TV
shows.
Alan
2024-10-20 22:05:46 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
Yeah... ...I thought that decision was bullshit.

Norris has pretty much half his car ahead until Verstappen basically
lets off the brakes and runs wide himself.

How in the world can Norris do ANYTHING other than run wide?
Edmund
2024-10-21 07:19:48 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND leave
space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.

BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
--
-------------

Godspeed for Assange
Amnesty for Snowden
Rehabilitation for heroes

Edmund
News
2024-10-22 14:37:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND leave
space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo

https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-a-slam-dunk/
Edmund
2024-10-22 16:01:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND leave
space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-a-slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
--
-------------

Godspeed for Assange
Amnesty for Snowden
Rehabilitation for heroes

Edmund
News
2024-10-22 16:13:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-a-
slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
Alan
2024-10-22 17:41:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...

...by simply easing off the brake pedal.

You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
News
2024-10-22 19:18:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
Alan
2024-10-22 20:13:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?

Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.

The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...

...which is exactly what happened?

How is that "racecraft"?

How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the track
in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off the track
on the STRAIGHT?

From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
News
2024-10-22 20:24:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the track
in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off the track
on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.

IYKYK.
Alan
2024-10-22 20:30:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
 From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD

'2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:

...

The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'

<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>

Read that as many times as it takes.
Geoff
2024-10-22 21:13:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner
AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and
kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
 From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-
_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
And that should work for the first corner in the race as well.
--
geoff
Alan
2024-10-22 21:15:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner
AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and
kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-
penalty- was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
 From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions
that force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-
_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
And  that should work for the first corner in the race as well.
Absolutely it should.

I understand why they usually let things go on lap one...

...but I don't agree with letting it go.
News
2024-10-23 14:18:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner
AND leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and
kept position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get
back ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing
off the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on
the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the
track in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off
the track on the STRAIGHT?
 From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
Now model outcomes and Stewards' probable responses.
IYKYK.
OIK...BYD
...
The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while
remaining within the limits of the track.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-
_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
Read that as many times as it takes.
What do HQ team strategists do every day, and on the race day pitwall?

Evaluate all priors, stewards' decisions, model probabilistic outcomes,
decide, execute, and if successful, win the battle, if not the war.
Edmund
2024-10-23 08:02:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after
all it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-
was- a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose
will be back in front.
Statistical evaluation and modeling >> basic racecraft
What do you even claim to mean by that?
Norris braked later than Verstappen and his nose was ahead.
The ONLY WAY that Verstappen comes back to nose ahead is by easing off
the brakes which will leave him with too much speed to stay on the track...
...which is exactly what happened?
Correct!
Post by Alan
How is that "racecraft"?
How is it different to using underbraking to force someone off the track
in a CORNER as opposed to using steering to force someone off the track
on the STRAIGHT?
From a car control standpoint, they are both deliberate actions that
force another driver off the track.
--
-------------

Godspeed for Assange
Amnesty for Snowden
Rehabilitation for heroes

Edmund
Mark
2024-10-23 09:39:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".

I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
hints at this:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-subsequent-penalty-analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.

From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.

If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.

...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?

It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
Alan
2024-10-23 20:44:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-subsequent-penalty-analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
I agree that even if Verstappen had stayed on the track, it should be
against the rules to force another driver off track once he has gained
position and you have room and time to choose a line that leaves him room.

The funny thing is that those same guidelines I posted pretty much make
this clear for passing on the inside:

'1. Guidelines for overtaking on the inside of a corner:

“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient
room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a
significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the
overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while
enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on
the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at
by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will
consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car
by no later than the apex of the corner.”'

<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>

So why should a different standard apply to an outside pass?

Norris's front tires were not only "alongside" at a point satisfying "no
later than the apex", he was actually ahead.

For me, this always comes back to leaving the other car room and time.

You can't barge down the inside too late, because that leaves the car
you're overtaking no time to change its line to stay on the track.

You shouldn't be able to take away a position gained on the outside by
letting off your own braking and leaving the overtaking car no room to
stay on the track.
Geoff
2024-10-23 23:54:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Mark
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-
united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-
subsequent-penalty-
analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
 From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
I agree that even if Verstappen had stayed on the track, it should be
against the rules to force another driver off track once he has gained
position and you have room and time to choose a line that leaves him room.
The funny thing is that those same guidelines I posted pretty much make
“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient
room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a
significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the
overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while
enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on
the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at
by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will
consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car
by no later than the apex of the corner.”'
<https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-
_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf>
So why should a different standard apply to an outside pass?
Norris's front tires were not only "alongside" at a point satisfying "no
later than the apex", he was actually ahead.
For me, this always comes back to leaving the other car room and time.
You can't barge down the inside too late, because that leaves the car
you're overtaking no time to change its line to stay on the track.
You shouldn't be able to take away a position gained on the outside by
letting off your own braking and leaving the overtaking car no room to
stay on the track.
Exactly.
--
geoff
Geoff
2024-10-23 23:52:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-subsequent-penalty-analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
And even if not leaving the track himself, in dive-bombing the corner in
a manner that it is inevitable that an adjacent driver is forced off the
track.
--
geoff
Alan
2024-10-24 00:11:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Alan
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by News
Post by Edmund
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all
it is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track
himself, and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
It works as it always work, some drivers are more equal then others.
Other then that, the rules!! IF they are applied here, suck big time.
The start where mad max goes way too fast to make the corner AND
leave space for others..... that is ruled OK! which is absurd.
BTW I am pretty sure max went off track during the race and kept
position BECAUSE he went of track, nobody cares.
Boo F1'riggin Hoo
https://adamcooperf1.com/2024/10/22/horner-norris-us-gp-penalty-was-
a- slam-dunk/
Much to my surprise Horner is backing his team.
Do you have a opinion of your own?
Horner speaks for me.
The difference is that Horner understands that it's easy to get back
ahead in the braking zone for a corner...
...by simply easing off the brake pedal.
You won't be able to stay on the track, mind, but your car's nose will
be back in front.
There have been a number of articles about this (understandably) which
all seem to add up to "What Verstappen did is almost certainly legal -
even if it's in a grey area - but should it be?".
I can't find the really good, deep discussion on this, but Brundle's
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/13238684/martin-brundle-on-
united-states-gp-lando-norris-battle-with-max-verstappen-and-
subsequent-penalty-
analysed#:~:text=And%20so%20started%20a%20string,and%20a%20pass%20seemed%20inevitable.
 From memory, the more involved discussion was related to the fact that
Verstappen was treated as the defending driver for the purposes of the
rules, but that it's not clear that he wasn't (in principle) passed on
the straight, and that he shouldn't have been treated as the attacking
driver for the purposes of the corner passing regulations.
If that were to be the case, the obligations on him are different. The
dive-bombing tactic wouldn't be a legitimate defence of the racing line,
and the forcing of Norris off-track while *not* actually staying
on-track himself wouldn't be treated the same. If he'd had to make the
corner and leave space, he'd have to have braked sooner, and he'd have
had to cede the lead was lost.
 > ...BUT all of this has to be considered, processed and a decision taken
Post by Mark
in next to no time. I think that what the stewards decided under the
circumstances and given the understanding of the rules was correct. In
the cold light of day, however, does there need to be a clarification -
to the drivers, the stewards or even a specific change in rules - to
remove some of the grey area?
It just doesn't "feel right" that a driver can engineer a situation
where their failure to slow in time for the corner gets to benefit from
forcing another driver off-track without making the turn legitimately
themselves. If Verstappen had forced Norris wide while making the corner
on-track I *still* think it needs a review - there is the question of
whether he needed to leave space - but not making the corner just looks
like abuse of the rules and something that needs addressing.
And even if not leaving the track himself, in dive-bombing the corner in
a manner that it is inevitable that an adjacent driver is forced off the
track.
Exactly.
Alan
2024-10-26 18:57:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
Here's the FIA basically admitting that they got it wrong:

'Formula 1’s governing body is to revise its racing guidelines following
a meeting with drivers at the Mexico City Grand Prix.

The move comes after drivers questioned the decision to penalise
McLaren’s Lando Norris following a controversial incident with Red
Bull’s Max Verstappen in last Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.
The FIA said in the drivers’ briefing in Mexico on Friday, sources in
the meeting have told BBC Sport, that it would come up with revised
wording to cover the specifics of the incident and present it to the
drivers for approval later this season.

The FIA did not give details as to what would change, but the admission
came in the context of a discussion about the tactics Verstappen had
employed to keep his position and whether he should have been penalised.'

<https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cn5wwzl052go>
Edmund
2024-10-27 17:46:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it
is the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself,
and it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
'Formula 1’s governing body is to revise its racing guidelines following
a meeting with drivers at the Mexico City Grand Prix.
Better late then never.
This shit is going on for many years, so I highly doubt they will come
up with something honest now.
Post by Alan
The move comes after drivers questioned the decision to penalise
McLaren’s Lando Norris following a controversial incident with Red
Bull’s Max Verstappen in last Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.
The FIA said in the drivers’ briefing in Mexico on Friday, sources in
the meeting have told BBC Sport, that it would come up with revised
wording to cover the specifics of the incident and present it to the
drivers for approval later this season.
The FIA did not give details as to what would change, but the admission
came in the context of a discussion about the tactics Verstappen had
employed to keep his position and whether he should have been penalised.'
<https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/articles/cn5wwzl052go>
--
-------------

Godspeed for Assange
Amnesty for Snowden
Rehabilitation for heroes

Edmund
scole
2024-10-27 09:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Geoff
VER forces NOR off track at first corner and all is OK "after all it is
the first corner of the race"....
Near the end, VER forces NOR off the track, going off-track himself, and
it is NOR gets a penalty.
How does that work ?
I'm late to the conversation, I know, and it now looks like there'll be a
rule "clarification" or amendment for the future, but this turn of events
last week absolutely stunk. For Norris to be run off the road by
Verstappen, who ran off the road himself in order to run Norris off the
road, and Norris get penalised for it, it just *stank*. An insult to any
conception of fair play.

After the absolute rock bottom in terms of integrity that was Abu Dhabi
2021, F1 has come a long way and this season has been fantastic fun, in
large part because it felt like a level playing field and the best team
and driver would be justly rewarded. Max is a real fucker of competitor,
ruthless and selfish in the way that the greats usually are, and he's
pulled some stunts already this year when he's been rattled by the
competition. But last week it felt like the stewards were pulling stunts
for him. I've been watching F1 for getting on for 30 years now, I almost
walked away after they robbed Lewis at Abu Dhabi but I'll definitely lose
interest if shenanigans resume.

Putting that all to one side, though, am looking forward to the last few
races of the year. I don't think Norris has a chance to catch up and
snatch the title, he's thrown too many points away over the season (and
McLaren should have pulled the trigger on team orders in his favour 4 or 5
races earlier than they did to maximise points for him), but I hope he
runs it close at least and gives Max a fright. And I really hope McLaren
can manage to take the constructors. I cannot stand Red Bull... :)
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