There's a little bit of blame to spread around...

[Alan]

...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.

Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.

This overhead does show Hamilton made a very early turn-in:

<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

[Mark Jackson]

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

The stewards, while noting that Hamilton "could have done more to avoid
the collision," had this to say about that turn-in:

"The driver of Car 44 stated that he was simply following his
normal racing line (which was confirmed by examination of
video and telemetry evidence of previous laps)."

Post by Alan
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I was surprised Max did not draw a penalty.

Post by Alan
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the
way and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

It does not appear to me that Hamilton could have stayed out of the way
without going off himself.

[Alan]

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

The stewards, while noting that Hamilton "could have done more to avoid
"The driver of Car 44 stated that he was simply following his
normal racing line (which was confirmed by examination of
video and telemetry evidence of previous laps)."

I looked at that part of it too, and it as a pretty early apex he was
aimed for before Verstappen got in the way. Looking at other laps from
his in-car camera, his normal apex was much further around the corner.

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

Agreed.  I was surprised Max did not draw a penalty.

Post by Alan
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the
way and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

It does not appear to me that Hamilton could have stayed out of the way
without going off himself.

Will have to disagree on that part, but it still should have been a
penalty to Verstappen. We agree on that.

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

The stewards, while noting that Hamilton "could have done more to avoid
"The driver of Car 44 stated that he was simply following his
normal racing line (which was confirmed by examination of
video and telemetry evidence of previous laps)."

Post by Alan
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I was surprised Max did not draw a penalty.

Tally one more for Team Penalty.

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the
way and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

It does not appear to me that Hamilton could have stayed out of the
way without going off himself.

Again, ditto.

Phil

[Alan]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

The stewards, while noting that Hamilton "could have done more to avoid
"The driver of Car 44 stated that he was simply following his
normal racing line (which was confirmed by examination of
video and telemetry evidence of previous laps)."

Post by Alan
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I was surprised Max did not draw a penalty.

Tally one more for Team Penalty.

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the
way and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

It does not appear to me that Hamilton could have stayed out of the
way without going off himself.

Again, ditto.

Hamilton could have braked in a straight line for another 20 metres easily.

His turn in was WAY early (see my other thread, complete with pictures).

[~misfit~]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>

The stewards, while noting that Hamilton "could have done more to avoid
"The driver of Car 44 stated that he was simply following his
normal racing line (which was confirmed by examination of
video and telemetry evidence of previous laps)."

Post by Alan
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.

Agreed. I was surprised Max did not draw a penalty.

Tally one more for Team Penalty.

One more here too.

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Mark Jackson

Post by Alan
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the
way and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

It does not appear to me that Hamilton could have stayed out of the
way without going off himself.

Again, ditto.

Aye.

[Yazoo]

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

[Alan]

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

You can measure the blame in large part because of the huge lock-up by
Verstappen.

There is no way in hell he can possibly keep his car on the track if he
hadn't locked up.

Ergo: dive-bomb.

I've been on the receiving end of something similar.

I was being caught by two cars in a faster class as we approached turn 1
at Mission. As I wasn't currently in a battle with anyone in my own
class—just running on my own, I took a line through the corner that was
going to put me at least two car widths wide of the apex (off in the
marbles a bit, frankly).

When a THIRD car in another class (an imported Formula Ford Ecoboost,
running in our "Formula Libre" class) who was faster than the Formula
Continentals who were actually battling decided he could pass BOTH FCs
under braking.

He was wrong; WAY wrong.

He dove inside, ended up locking all four wheels, and slid past the
(very early) apex and slid all the way into me!

He was inexperienced (evidenced by the fact that an earlier incident
that weekend had left him running without front and rear wings) and made
a bonehead move.

Max Verstappen is NOT inexperienced. He should have known that at the
point he chose to brake, there would be no chance of making the maneuver
stick.

So mostly his fault.

[Geoff]

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

geoff

geoff

[Mark]

Post by Geoff

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.

That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".

Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.

Hmmm...PKB

[Sir Tim]

Post by Mark

Post by Geoff

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.

It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.

At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

[Alan]

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark

Post by Geoff

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.

Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

[Mark]

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
to a pass that simply wasn't going to work - and that's what I wrote
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

[Geoff]

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

'Two minutes' ? More like over the whole race !

geoff

[Alan]

Post by Geoff

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

'Two minutes' ? More like over the whole race !

It was actually very little guys:

<https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-radio-transcript-gianpiero-lambiase-2024-hungarian-grand-prix>

He had 11 radio exchanges in total.

Of those, maybe three expressed any "anger".

[Geoff]

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

'Two minutes' ? More like over the whole race !

<https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-verstappen-radio-transcript-gianpiero-lambiase-2024-hungarian-grand-prix>
He had 11 radio exchanges in total.
Of those, maybe three expressed any "anger".

Alright. Whinging then, if you prefer.

geoff

[Alan]

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark
I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.
At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

But that's the point:

The overtaking driver doesn't get to just "commit" to an attempt that
makes it the responsibility of the driver he's trying to pass to do
something to get out of the way.

Yes: Verstappen knew Hamilton was there and that is why he was running
through Copse more than a car's width wide of the apex. But that is all
he was obliged to do.

And because Hamilton's move comes when Verstappen is deeper in the
corner (because he's ahead) he has FEWER options. He could have done
what Leclerc did and drive off the track, but he wasn't obliged to do
so. Hamilton was obliged to pull off the overtake cleanly.

Post by Mark
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

It IS a failure to understand. You seem to think you can just lift a
little and all will be well. It isn't that simple; particularly in
high-speed big commitment corners.

I have to teach students that when they're at the limit...REALLY at the
limit, lifting off will result in a spin; a spin, BTW, which will often
start with the car moving INWARD as lifting the throttle transfers grip
to the front tires.

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

I think you give too little credit to a driver who is (whether you want
to acknowledge or not) one of the best in the world right now. I don't
think he could have got where he is today if he were to let anger with
his team come out in his driving.

So yeah: it might have been influenced by his emotions at the time, but
for you to declare it absolutely was (as you now appear to be doing)...

...that's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

[Mark]

Post by Alan

Post by Mark

Post by Alan
Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

The overtaking driver doesn't get to just "commit" to an attempt that
makes it the responsibility of the driver he's trying to pass to do
something to get out of the way.
Yes: Verstappen knew Hamilton was there and that is why he was running
through Copse more than a car's width wide of the apex. But that is all
he was obliged to do.
And because Hamilton's move comes when Verstappen is deeper in the
corner (because he's ahead) he has FEWER options. He could have done
what Leclerc did and drive off the track, but he wasn't obliged to do
so. Hamilton was obliged to pull off the overtake cleanly.

Just as with Verstappen on Sunday, Hamilton wasn't fully in control IMO.
Verstappen wasn't obliged to do more, but turning into Hamilton was
never going to end well.

You may take a different view. Frankly given your attitude (above and
below), I don't really care.

Post by Alan

Post by Mark
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

It IS a failure to understand. You seem to think you can just lift a
little and all will be well. It isn't that simple; particularly in
high-speed big commitment corners.

I never said it was simple.

Post by Alan
I have to teach students that when they're at the limit...REALLY at the
limit, lifting off will result in a spin; a spin, BTW, which will often
start with the car moving INWARD as lifting the throttle transfers grip
to the front tires.

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

I think you give too little credit to a driver who is (whether you want
to acknowledge or not) one of the best in the world right now. I don't
think he could have got where he is today if he were to let anger with
his team come out in his driving.

When did I fail to acknowledge that? You are imagining words that I
didn't say and then telling me I'm wrong for saying things that I didn't
say.

Post by Alan
So yeah: it might have been influenced by his emotions at the time, but
for you to declare it absolutely was (as you now appear to be doing)...
...that's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

I listened to angry rants from him in the run up to a poor move, and I
will stand by my opinion that he was allowing his emotion get the better
of him. That's not arrogance, it's an F1 fan of many years expressing an
opinion.

What's arrogant is someone who thinks that claiming some specific racing
experience entitles them to tell everyone else they aren't entitled to
an opinion because they know better. Either they are so spectacularly
narcissistic that they believe they have a god-given right to "correct"
their (perceived) inferiors.

Personally, I post to usenet to hear others' views - including those I
disagree with - and to engage in a meaningful, friendly debate where I
may (or may not) persuade those others. Posting dull, pompous objections
using "argument from authority" rarely persuades, and never appeals.

(Feel free to come back with even more pompous claptrap, I won't be
interested or responding)

[Alan]

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Mark

Post by Alan
Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

The overtaking driver doesn't get to just "commit" to an attempt that
makes it the responsibility of the driver he's trying to pass to do
something to get out of the way.
Yes: Verstappen knew Hamilton was there and that is why he was running
through Copse more than a car's width wide of the apex. But that is all
he was obliged to do.
And because Hamilton's move comes when Verstappen is deeper in the
corner (because he's ahead) he has FEWER options. He could have done
what Leclerc did and drive off the track, but he wasn't obliged to do
so. Hamilton was obliged to pull off the overtake cleanly.

Just as with Verstappen on Sunday, Hamilton wasn't fully in control IMO.
Verstappen wasn't obliged to do more, but turning into Hamilton was
never going to end well.
You may take a different view. Frankly given your attitude (above and
below), I don't really care.

Post by Alan

Post by Mark
He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

Post by Alan
Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

Post by Alan
One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

It IS a failure to understand. You seem to think you can just lift a
little and all will be well. It isn't that simple; particularly in
high-speed big commitment corners.

I never said it was simple.

Post by Alan
I have to teach students that when they're at the limit...REALLY at the
limit, lifting off will result in a spin; a spin, BTW, which will often
start with the car moving INWARD as lifting the throttle transfers grip
to the front tires.

Post by Mark

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim
In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.

I think you give too little credit to a driver who is (whether you want
to acknowledge or not) one of the best in the world right now. I don't
think he could have got where he is today if he were to let anger with
his team come out in his driving.

When did I fail to acknowledge that? You are imagining words that I
didn't say and then telling me I'm wrong for saying things that I didn't
say.

Post by Alan
So yeah: it might have been influenced by his emotions at the time, but
for you to declare it absolutely was (as you now appear to be doing)...
...that's pretty arrogant, don't you think?

I listened to angry rants from him in the run up to a poor move, and I
will stand by my opinion that he was allowing his emotion get the better
of him. That's not arrogance, it's an F1 fan of many years expressing an
opinion.
What's arrogant is someone who thinks that claiming some specific racing
experience entitles them to tell everyone else they aren't entitled to
an opinion because they know better. Either they are so spectacularly
narcissistic that they believe they have a god-given right to "correct"
their (perceived) inferiors.
Personally, I post to usenet to hear others' views - including those I
disagree with - and to engage in a meaningful, friendly debate where I
may (or may not) persuade those others. Posting dull, pompous objections
using "argument from authority" rarely persuades, and never appeals.
(Feel free to come back with even more pompous claptrap, I won't be
interested or responding)

I get it, I get it...

YOU are just "expressing your opinion" based on your years...

...of WATCHING.

But my actual experience of watching...

...and DRIVING...

...isn't "expressing my opinion"...

...it's being "pompous and arrogant"!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

[Alan]

Post by Mark
What's arrogant is someone who thinks that claiming some specific racing
experience entitles them to tell everyone else they aren't entitled to
an opinion because they know better. Either they are so spectacularly
narcissistic that they believe they have a god-given right to "correct"
their (perceived) inferiors.

I just wanted to address this point about me supposedly telling people
they're not entitled to their opinions.

That's so much bullshit.

But you being entitled to an opinion doesn't mean that I'm not entitled
to tell you I think you're wrong. That's MY opinion.

Example.

You said earlier in this thread:

'He [Verstappen] misjudged the braking (even though he'd been on the
radio just before complaining about rear brakes) and lost control.
Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by surprise.

The first sentence is basically correct.

The second... ...it is utter nonsense.

Hamilton was nowhere NEAR his normal racing line; not even close.

And the reason he wasn't was because he KNEW Verstappen was likely to
try something and he was trying to dissuade him from doing so.

So the idea that he as "taken by surprise".

More bullshit.

I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings... ...but no, I'm not sorry.

[~misfit~]

On 24/07/2024 10:32 am, Mark wrote:
<snippage>

Post by Mark
(Feel free to come back with even more pompous claptrap, I won't be
interested or responding)

Thank the gods! ;)

[Geoff]

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Mark

Post by Geoff

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
(but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
Hmmm...PKB

I agree with everything you say.
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.

Not sure if 'mature' is relevant. I think it is more just the nature of
his personality.

geoff

[Sir Tim]

Post by Geoff

Post by Sir Tim
It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
to mature.

Not sure if 'mature' is relevant. I think it is more just the nature of
his personality.

Yes, but surely “maturity” implies the ability to overcome negative
personality traits?

[Geoff]

Post by Mark

Post by Geoff

Post by Yazoo

Post by Alan
...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
<https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.

Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
overtake them.
Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
measure the blame? I don't know.
As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
after the race).

I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
dodgems against NOR.

I read it as Verstappen driving "angry".

What VER 'angry' ? Surely not ;- )

geoff