Interlagos (may be a bit of a spoiler)

[pP85PrR]

What an F'd up weekend.

I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)

As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of
abort/abandon.

I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of
a shitshow.

[Mark Jackson]

Post by pP85PrR
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of
a shitshow.

At this writing there are seven issues still unresolved (summons issued
but no finding on the FIA website): four "aborted start incident," two
"tyre pressure checks," and one "dangerous driving."

[~misfit~]

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race weekends, but this recent one
is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of a shitshow.

I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most of the field don't have the
sense to use the supplied full wet tyres when it's fully wet! So, the race director decides it's
too dangerous and a guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on 30 lap old intermediate
tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

I don't know about post-race penalties either and don't really care. I'm going to watch the MotoGP
now, at least (hopefully) it won't leave me with a sour taste...

[Alan]

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of a shitshow.

I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most of
the field don't have the sense to use the supplied full wet tyres when
it's fully wet! So, the race director decides it's too dangerous and a
guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on 30 lap old
intermediate tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

The problem isn't that teams won't use the extreme wet.

The problem is that we've gotten to the point where the technology of
the cars combined with the extreme wet tires lets them work in
conditions that throw up so much spray that the drivers really can't SEE.

I've been out on a very wet track with far less technology and it can be
a challenge.

Just look at some of the in-car/on-car video from Brazil when it was
just the intermediate tires and imagine it even worse with extreme wet
tires.

I do think that the FIA needs to re-think the rules regarding tire
changes during red flag periods during a race, though.

[a425couple]

Post by Alan

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe
the Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of a shitshow.

I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most
of the field don't have the sense to use the supplied full wet tyres
when it's fully wet! So, the race director decides it's too dangerous
and a guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on 30 lap old
intermediate tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

The problem isn't that teams won't use the extreme wet.
The problem is that we've gotten to the point where the technology of
the cars combined with the extreme wet tires lets them work in
conditions that throw up so much spray that the drivers really can't SEE.
I've been out on a very wet track with far less technology and it can be
a challenge.
Just look at some of the in-car/on-car video from Brazil when it was
just the intermediate tires and imagine it even worse with extreme wet
tires.
I do think that the FIA needs to re-think the rules regarding tire
changes during red flag periods during a race, though.

I certainly agree about heavy rain causing vision problems
for the drivers - this is not a skill problem, it is an absolute
safety problem.
And not just for the drivers, but also for race control and for
turn workers.

[Alan]

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe
the Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary
confusion of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of a shitshow.

I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most
of the field don't have the sense to use the supplied full wet tyres
when it's fully wet! So, the race director decides it's too dangerous
and a guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on 30 lap old
intermediate tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

The problem isn't that teams won't use the extreme wet.
The problem is that we've gotten to the point where the technology of
the cars combined with the extreme wet tires lets them work in
conditions that throw up so much spray that the drivers really can't SEE.
I've been out on a very wet track with far less technology and it can
be a challenge.
Just look at some of the in-car/on-car video from Brazil when it was
just the intermediate tires and imagine it even worse with extreme wet
tires.
I do think that the FIA needs to re-think the rules regarding tire
changes during red flag periods during a race, though.

I certainly agree about heavy rain causing vision problems
for the drivers - this is not a skill problem, it is an absolute
safety problem.
And not just for the drivers, but also for race control and for
turn workers.

And that's coming from you...

...who I watched drive around at nearly walking pace in your sports
racer after all your competitors had gone off track in heavy rain!

[a425couple]

Post by Alan

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.

SNIP

Post by Alan

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan
I've been out on a very wet track with far less technology and it can
be a challenge.
Just look at some of the in-car/on-car video from Brazil when it was
just the intermediate tires and imagine it even worse with extreme
wet tires.
I do think that the FIA needs to re-think the rules regarding tire
changes during red flag periods during a race, though.

I certainly agree about heavy rain causing vision problems
for the drivers - this is not a skill problem, it is an absolute
safety problem.
And not just for the drivers, but also for race control and for
turn workers.

And that's coming from you...
...who I watched drive around at nearly walking pace in your sports
racer after all your competitors had gone off track in heavy rain!

Wow!!
Thanks for causing me to flashback to ancient memories.
That was quite some day!
My fastest lap (of 11) was 2:15, where my times were regularly
in those years in the rocket ship under 1:25.
4 Sports Racers took the start, and either went off track,
or into the pits before completing a lap.
One other SR hung on and completed 2 laps, fastest being 3:12.
Turns out, I just barely beat the best FV, his FL was 2:16.
Your countryman Rick Paine (who next year (?) won the national
Runnoffs in FF took 1st overall.
That class victory pretty much cinched the years
class championship.
June 15 2014.

My oldest grand daughter had fun playing in the mud puddles
in the paddock. Pretty wonderful day.

[Alan]

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.

SNIP

Post by Alan

Post by a425couple

Post by Alan
I've been out on a very wet track with far less technology and it
can be a challenge.
Just look at some of the in-car/on-car video from Brazil when it was
just the intermediate tires and imagine it even worse with extreme
wet tires.
I do think that the FIA needs to re-think the rules regarding tire
changes during red flag periods during a race, though.

I certainly agree about heavy rain causing vision problems
for the drivers - this is not a skill problem, it is an absolute
safety problem.
And not just for the drivers, but also for race control and for
turn workers.

And that's coming from you...
...who I watched drive around at nearly walking pace in your sports
racer after all your competitors had gone off track in heavy rain!

Wow!!
Thanks for causing me to flashback to ancient memories.
That was quite some day!
My fastest lap (of 11) was 2:15, where my times were regularly
in those years in the rocket ship under 1:25.
4 Sports Racers took the start, and either went off track,
or into the pits before completing a lap.
One other SR hung on and completed 2 laps, fastest being 3:12.
Turns out, I just barely beat the best FV, his FL was 2:16.
Your countryman Rick Paine (who next year (?) won the national
Runnoffs in FF took 1st overall.
That class victory pretty much cinched the years
class championship.
June 15 2014.
My oldest grand daughter had fun playing in the mud puddles
in the paddock.  Pretty wonderful day.

My pleasure for the reminder.

It was a crazy day; rain cells coming through, and trying to guess
whether your session was going to be wet or dry.

[scole]

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race

weekends, but this recent one

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the Spa non-race is up there.

(And I've been a fan for a while.)

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of a shitshow.

I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most of

the field don't have the

Post by ~misfit~
sense to use the supplied full wet tyres when it's fully wet! So, the

race director decides it's

Post by ~misfit~
too dangerous and a guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on

30 lap old intermediate

Post by ~misfit~
tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

I mean, first of all, what an insanely entertaining freak-show of a race
weekend! It was crazy, maybe too crazy in honesty but mighty fun to devote
almost the whole weekend to watching.

To your point re tyres, at one point one of the Sky commentators (Crofty,
I think) remarked "It is undriveable out there", but all the drivers were
on inters while it was absolutely shagging it down with rain, I thought,
so of course it is! I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done
about drivers hanging their arses out on inters hoping for a red flag tbh.
Maybe the race director could issue a directive that conditions mandate
full wet and that all teams must box at the next opportunity? Knowing that
this call could be a possibility might encourage teams to box for wets at
their own choosing, maybe trying to judge it so they do so a lap or two
prior to the race director mandating it, so then teams that have tried to
stay out for an advantage then have to contend with a busy pit lane and
potentially double-stacking their cars?

I dunno, sounds a bit daft, but the current situation isn't much good,
either. And with the red flag giving teams a free pit stop, it needs
fixing. Surely easiest thing to do would be to add time to any driver who
had work done under the red flag? So, change tyres under red flag, plus 25
seconds to race time to account for the pit stop cost, changes tyres and
front wing, plus 40 seconds, and so on. Reflect what doing these under
normal race conditions would cost. Even better, add the time and then
re-order accordingly when getting the race restarted; take the track
positions at the last complete lap or sector and factor in the red flag
pit work time to move cars to the correct position had they pitted under
race conditions?

Max got very lucky, but he drove a great race and would, I think, have
been on the podium if not first anyway. Hats off to the guy. Shame it's
all over now bar the fat lady singing, though, would have been great to
see Lando take it to the wire.

[~misfit~]

Post by pP85PrR

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race

weekends, but this recent one

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the Spa non-race is up there.

(And I've been a fan for a while.)

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion

of abort/abandon.

Post by ~misfit~

Post by pP85PrR
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more

of a shitshow.

Post by ~misfit~
I was so pissed off when the red flag was thrown. It seems that most of

the field don't have the

Post by ~misfit~
sense to use the supplied full wet tyres when it's fully wet! So, the

race director decides it's

Post by ~misfit~
too dangerous and a guy who stayed out, partly causing this danger, on

30 lap old intermediate

Post by ~misfit~
tyres in a downpour is gifted a win?

I mean, first of all, what an insanely entertaining freak-show of a race
weekend! It was crazy, maybe too crazy in honesty but mighty fun to devote
almost the whole weekend to watching.

I think it was fine up until the race.

Post by pP85PrR
To your point re tyres, at one point one of the Sky commentators (Crofty,
I think) remarked "It is undriveable out there",

I have on opinion of Crofty and it includes that he should let the ex-F1 driver speak to driving.
He should stick to his stats and inane puns (and take a Valium 20 minutes before the race starts).

Post by pP85PrR
but all the drivers were
on inters while it was absolutely shagging it down with rain, I thought,
so of course it is! I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done
about drivers hanging their arses out on inters hoping for a red flag tbh.

I've heard Martin Brundle liken this to 'goal-hanging'.

Post by pP85PrR
Maybe the race director could issue a directive that conditions mandate
full wet and that all teams must box at the next opportunity? Knowing that
this call could be a possibility might encourage teams to box for wets at
their own choosing, maybe trying to judge it so they do so a lap or two
prior to the race director mandating it, so then teams that have tried to
stay out for an advantage then have to contend with a busy pit lane and
potentially double-stacking their cars?
I dunno, sounds a bit daft, but the current situation isn't much good,
either. And with the red flag giving teams a free pit stop, it needs
fixing. Surely easiest thing to do would be to add time to any driver who
had work done under the red flag? So, change tyres under red flag, plus 25
seconds to race time to account for the pit stop cost, changes tyres and
front wing, plus 40 seconds, and so on. Reflect what doing these under
normal race conditions would cost. Even better, add the time and then
re-order accordingly when getting the race restarted; take the track
positions at the last complete lap or sector and factor in the red flag
pit work time to move cars to the correct position had they pitted under
race conditions?

Some good suggestions that I think have merit. Also can't the race director just throw a safety car
and then get the cars to park on the grid pending a re-start (under the safety car) when conditions
allow? That way there are no changes to the cars allowed on the grid and if drivers want to change
tyres they have to pit when the race is going. I'm sure I've seen that in the past. Those who
haven't pitted could still pit under the safety car but it at least would cost them /some/ time
and/or positions.

Post by pP85PrR
Max got very lucky, but he drove a great race and would, I think, have
been on the podium if not first anyway. Hats off to the guy. Shame it's
all over now bar the fat lady singing, though, would have been great to
see Lando take it to the wire.

I also think Max would have done well regardless but this result to me is the result of a lottery.
At worst it could be seen as Max yet again benefiting (maybe even getting a WDC!) from a race
director's decision.

[durian]

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.

What a drive by VER... 13 times (?) a fastest lap, winning from P17, in
the rain. RB had bad luck in qualifying but made a good gamble in the
race by staying out and hoping for a red flag.

Very entertaining race weekend- that's for sure :-)
-peter

[Dumas Walker]

Post by pP85PrR
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)

Many years ago, when Michael Schummacher was driving and, IIRC, Fernando
Alonso was young, they had a heck of a wet race at the same facility.

I remember it because I believe they both crashed out.


* SLMR 2.1a * "And then you turn the corner," as the DM chuckles...

[Woozy Song]

Post by Dumas Walker

Post by pP85PrR
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)

Many years ago, when Michael Schummacher was driving and, IIRC, Fernando
Alonso was young, they had a heck of a wet race at the same facility.
I remember it because I believe they both crashed out.
* SLMR 2.1a * "And then you turn the corner," as the DM chuckles...

2003 was pretty bad, cars aquaplaning off left, right and centre. It was
abandoned after 56 laps, and Jordan ended up winning.

[Dumas Walker]

Post by Woozy Song

Post by Dumas Walker
Many years ago, when Michael Schummacher was driving and, IIRC, Fernando
Alonso was young, they had a heck of a wet race at the same facility.
I remember it because I believe they both crashed out.

2003 was pretty bad, cars aquaplaning off left, right and centre. It was
abandoned after 56 laps, and Jordan ended up winning.

Yes, that is the one I was thinking about. It was a very wet and crazy
race.


* SLMR 2.1a * No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.

[Alan]

Post by Dumas Walker

Post by Woozy Song

Post by Dumas Walker
Many years ago, when Michael Schummacher was driving and, IIRC, Fernando
Alonso was young, they had a heck of a wet race at the same facility.
I remember it because I believe they both crashed out.

2003 was pretty bad, cars aquaplaning off left, right and centre. It was
abandoned after 56 laps, and Jordan ended up winning.

Yes, that is the one I was thinking about. It was a very wet and crazy
race.
* SLMR 2.1a * No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.

The basic issue is that the technology has outstripped safety when
there's too much rain.

Yes: they can bolt on the extreme wets, but they throw so much water
into the air, that the drivers simply can't see far enough ahead.

I've raced in the wet with far less capable tires than F1 has and
without the aero bits that help to throw the spray up even more, and I
can honestly say there have been times when I couldn't see anything.

One time, as I was going down the front straight behind to other FFs,
visibility wasn't too bad so I could see that they were going to be
fighting to the inside as the lead car drove to block off the next guy.

But then the track got wetter, and I lost sight of both of them in the
spray...

...until following car suddenly appeared as I was braking down the
normal rain line about a car width and a half inside the rubbered in
normal line.

He was moving back to the outside to open up the corner after deciding
that an inside pass wasn't going to happen, and he couldn't see me
behind him...because of the spray.

When we both finally saw each other, I moved all the way to the wall and
he managed to leave me a bare (bare!) car's width between him and the
wall, to the point that when I returned to the paddock after the race
and looked, my left side tires didn't have any of the white paint in the
molded numbers anymore.

[Dumas Walker]

Post by Alan
The basic issue is that the technology has outstripped safety when
there's too much rain.
Yes: they can bolt on the extreme wets, but they throw so much water
into the air, that the drivers simply can't see far enough ahead.

I agree. If the drivers cannot see where they are going, it is going to
get dangerous quick. More tech doesn't do much good if they cannot see.

Post by Alan
When we both finally saw each other, I moved all the way to the wall and
he managed to leave me a bare (bare!) car's width between him and the
wall, to the point that when I returned to the paddock after the race
and looked, my left side tires didn't have any of the white paint in the
molded numbers anymore.

That was a close call then. :O Thanks for sharing this!


* SLMR 2.1a * Beam me aboard Scotty. Aye, will a 2x4 do captain?

[Geoff May]

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion of
abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more of
a shitshow.

Norris and Russell got fined for starting another lap instead of parking
up at the aborted start.

Mercedes got fined for the tyre pressure changes.

Sainz got a reprimand because he removed the steering wheel and the
marshals started preparing the car for removal. Sainz then reattached
the steering wheel in preparation for driving off but the marshals were
still sorting the car for removal.

No one got penalties that change the results.

Cheers

Geoff

[Alan]

Post by Geoff May

Post by pP85PrR
What an F'd up weekend.
I realize that there has always been weather that has affected race
weekends, but this recent one is the worst I can recall. OK, maybe the
Spa non-race is up there. (And I've been a fan for a while.)
As an aside, kudos to the race director for the unnecessary confusion
of abort/abandon.
I'm afraid to check the news for penalties. I suspect it will be more
of a shitshow.

Norris and Russell got fined for starting another lap instead of parking
up at the aborted start.
Mercedes got fined for the tyre pressure changes.
Sainz got a reprimand because he removed the steering wheel and the
marshals started preparing the car for removal. Sainz then reattached
the steering wheel in preparation for driving off but the marshals were
still sorting the car for removal.
No one got penalties that change the results.

And I think that's appropriate.