What's the bore and stroke of an F1 engine?

[P***@2K.com]

At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

[News]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Sometimes (vis. Renault and BMW at Catalunya) farther than planned.

[The Wizard]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Depends...

If it was Alonso's engine, Well ;-)

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second.  How far do they travel?

Distance traveled in a second, or distance between tdc and bdc?
Someone please answer his/her enquiry as I'd like to know myself.
Stipulating a minimum 6" stroke, with cast-iron rods, would do F1 the
world of good!

[P***@2K.com]

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second.  How far do they travel?

Distance traveled in a second, or distance between tdc and bdc?
Someone please answer his/her enquiry as I'd like to know myself.
Stipulating a minimum 6" stroke, with cast-iron rods, would do F1 the
world of good!

Length of stroke is what I meant. What's the distance they have to
travel more than 300 times per second? It can't be very far.

[Halmyre]

Post by P***@2K.com

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second.  How far do they travel?

Distance traveled in a second, or distance between tdc and bdc?
Someone please answer his/her enquiry as I'd like to know myself.
Stipulating a minimum 6" stroke, with cast-iron rods, would do F1 the
world of good!

Length of stroke is what I meant. What's the distance they have to
travel more than 300 times per second? It can't be very far.

Some interesting stuff here:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/piston_velocity_and_acceleration.htm

I once sat and worked out how a piston's speed was related to rpm, and stroke length, but
I'm damned if I can find it now (or remember how to do it!)

[Halmyre]

Post by Halmyre

Post by P***@2K.com

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second.  How far do they travel?

Distance traveled in a second, or distance between tdc and bdc?
Someone please answer his/her enquiry as I'd like to know myself.
Stipulating a minimum 6" stroke, with cast-iron rods, would do F1 the
world of good!

Length of stroke is what I meant. What's the distance they have to
travel more than 300 times per second? It can't be very far.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/piston_velocity_and_acceleration.htm
I once sat and worked out how a piston's speed was related to rpm, and stroke length, but
I'm damned if I can find it now (or remember how to do it!)

Oh bollocks; for stroke length read con-rod length.

[Depresion]

Post by Halmyre

Post by Halmyre
I once sat and worked out how a piston's speed was related to rpm, and stroke length, but
I'm damned if I can find it now (or remember how to do it!)

Oh bollocks; for stroke length read con-rod length.

I think it's somthing like this for distance from TDC I hope but it's been a
while.

(CLR+T) - (square-root(CRL^2-(T^2-(T*Cos(RC) ^2)))-T*Cos(RC))

Where:
CRL is con rod length
T is throw
RC is rotation of crank.

[APLer]

Post by Halmyre

Post by P***@2K.com

Post by b***@hotmail.com

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300
times per second.  How far do they travel?

Distance traveled in a second, or distance between tdc and bdc?
Someone please answer his/her enquiry as I'd like to know myself.
Stipulating a minimum 6" stroke, with cast-iron rods, would do F1
the world of good!

Length of stroke is what I meant. What's the distance they have to
travel more than 300 times per second? It can't be very far.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/piston_velocity_and_acc
eleration.htm
I once sat and worked out how a piston's speed was related to rpm, and
stroke length, but I'm damned if I can find it now (or remember how to
do it!)

It would certainly be a sin/cos function.

[Jon]

wrote...

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Some info here

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4

Following the history of changes, it's pretty obvious that if anyone
other than Ferrari gains an advantage, the rulz is changed.



Regulations

The current regulations on Formula One engines look like this. These
specifications have become more strict during recent years in an attempt
to limit costs and decrease performance. You can find an evolution of
the most important regulations per era in the safety section. As this is
only an exerpt of the most important regulations on engines, you would
need to see the official FIA technical regulations before you start to
design a Formula One engine yourself.

Specification
Only 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted.
Engine capacity must not exceed 2400 cc.
Supercharging is forbidden.
All engines must have 8 cylinders arranged in a 90º =3FV=3F configuration
and the normal section of each cylinder must be circular.
Engines must have two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.
Only reciprocating poppet valves are permitted.
The sealing interface between the moving valve component and the
stationary engine component must be circular.

Dimensions, weight and centre of gravity
Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm.
Cylinder spacing must be fixed at 106.5mm (+/- 0.2mm).
The crankshaft centreline must not be less than 58mm above the reference
plane.
The overall weight of the engine must be a minimum of 95kg.
The centre of gravity of the engine may not lie less than 165mm above
the reference plane.
The longitudinal and lateral position of the centre of gravity of the
engine must fall within a region that is the geometric centre of the
engine, +/- 50mm. The geometric centre of the engine in a lateral sense
will be considered to lie on the centre of the crankshaft and at the mid
point between the centres of the forward and rear most cylinder bores
longitudinally.
Variable geometry systems are not permitted

Materials
Magnesium based alloys, Metal Matrix Composites (MMC=3Fs) and
Intermetallic materials may not be used anywhere in an engine
Coatings are free provided and must not exceed 0.8mm.
Pistons must be manufactured from an aluminium alloy which is either Al-
Si ; Al-Cu ; Al-Mg or Al-Zn based.
Piston pins, crankshafts and camshafts must be manufactured from an iron
based alloy and must be machined from a single piece of material.

[b***@hotmail.com]

 wrote...

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second.  How far do they travel?

Some info here
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/4
Following the history of changes, it's pretty obvious that if anyone
other than Ferrari gains an advantage, the rulz is changed.
Regulations
The current regulations on Formula One engines look like this. These
specifications have become more strict during recent years in an attempt
to limit costs and decrease performance. You can find an evolution of
the most important regulations per era in the safety section. As this is
only an exerpt of the most important regulations on engines, you would
need to see the official FIA technical regulations before you start to
design a Formula One engine yourself.
Specification
Only 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted.
Engine capacity must not exceed 2400 cc.
Supercharging is forbidden.
All engines must have 8 cylinders arranged in a 90º =3FV=3F configuration
and the normal section of each cylinder must be circular.
Engines must have two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.
Only reciprocating poppet valves are permitted.
The sealing interface between the moving valve component and the
stationary engine component must be circular.
Dimensions, weight and centre of gravity
Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm.
Cylinder spacing must be fixed at 106.5mm (+/- 0.2mm).
The crankshaft centreline must not be less than 58mm above the reference
plane.
The overall weight of the engine must be a minimum of 95kg.
The centre of gravity of the engine may not lie less than 165mm above
the reference plane.
The longitudinal and lateral position of the centre of gravity of the
engine must fall within a region that is the geometric centre of the
engine, +/- 50mm. The geometric centre of the engine in a lateral sense
will be considered to lie on the centre of the crankshaft and at the mid
point between the centres of the forward and rear most cylinder bores
longitudinally.
Variable geometry systems are not permitted
Materials
Magnesium based alloys, Metal Matrix Composites (MMC=3Fs) and
Intermetallic materials may not be used anywhere in an engine
Coatings are free provided and must not exceed 0.8mm.
Pistons must be manufactured from an aluminium alloy which is either Al-
Si ; Al-Cu ; Al-Mg or Al-Zn based.
Piston pins, crankshafts and camshafts must be manufactured from an iron
based alloy and must be machined from a single piece of material.

Thank you for posting that. Makes me wonder why, such a little little
time ago, the V-10 was designated "the best possible configuration."
If the FIA's objective is to "slow down" speeds, I know someone who
has about 50 old but identical Ford Windsor V-8's that would cost less
than McLaren's bar bill.

[Greg Campbell]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)

2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder

Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)

Piston travel per crank rotation.
4.5 inches (stroke*2 / 2.54)

Average velocity at 19K:
(Peak V will be ~1.4x higher, I believe.)

=85,500 inches/minute
=1425 inches/sec
=7125 feet/min
=81 Miles/hr
=36 Meters/sec


<Looking for validation...>
Ah, here's an article about BMW'2 2003 V10
http://scarbsf1.com/BMW_P83/index.html

My values look ballpark accurate.

[Jon]

Greg Campbell wrote...

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches

F1 rulz state -
Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm.

[Depresion]

Post by Jon
Greg Campbell wrote...

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches

F1 rulz state -
Cylinder bore diameter may not exceed 98mm.

So a stroke of about 39.7mm

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)

cm*cm != cc

Phil

[Greg Campbell]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)

cm*cm != cc
Phil

Ugh! Did I do a dumb thing.....?
Goes to show what 4 hours sleep will do to a person's brain........

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)

cm*cm != cc

Ugh! Did I do a dumb thing.....?

I wasn't sure, I'm one of DB's annoying number 2s! However, I'm
a mathematician and can detect incorrect dimensions more easily
than I can find my spectacles when they're on my forehead.

Taking bore as 92mm from another branch of the thread. r=4.6cm
x-sectional area = pi*r^2 = 66.5 cm^2
reverse engineering from V*8=2400cc, V=300cc => s=4.5cm

Sanity check bore/stroke = 1 which is surprisingly square
given the numbers thrown around elsethread.

(You'd want 3.6-3.7 cm bore if you really wanted a bsr of 2 in
a 2400cc V8, for reference.)

Post by Greg Campbell
Goes to show what 4 hours sleep will do to a person's brain........

Blimey, that's worse than me.

Phil

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)

cm*cm != cc

Ugh! Did I do a dumb thing.....?

I wasn't sure, I'm one of DB's annoying number 2s! However, I'm
a mathematician and can detect incorrect dimensions more easily
than I can find my spectacles when they're on my forehead.
Taking bore as 92mm from another branch of the thread. r=4.6cm
x-sectional area = pi*r^2 = 66.5 cm^2
reverse engineering from V*8=2400cc, V=300cc => s=4.5cm

Alright up to here.

Post by Phil Carmody
Sanity check bore/stroke =

BZZZT! Forgot I divided by 2 for radius.

... = just over 2

[Bigbird]

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)
Piston travel per crank rotation.
4.5 inches (stroke*2 / 2.54)
(Peak V will be ~1.4x higher, I believe.)
=85,500 inches/minute
=1425 inches/sec
=7125 feet/min
=81 Miles/hr
=36 Meters/sec
<Looking for validation...>
Ah, here's an article about BMW'2 2003 V10
http://scarbsf1.com/BMW_P83/index.html
My values look ballpark accurate.

http://tinyurl.com/6am8cm

or

http://tinyurl.com/5kxobk

any good?

[Bigbird]

Post by Bigbird

Post by Greg Campbell

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300
times per second. How far do they travel?

Here are some numbers, based on a 2.5 stroke:bore ratio (found on a
less-than-authoritative sounding Wiki page.)
2400cc/8
300 cc per Cylinder
Bore
14.5cm = 5.7 inches
Stroke
5.7cm = 2.25 inches
(14.5 x 5.7 gives 299.6 cc per pot)
Piston travel per crank rotation.
4.5 inches (stroke*2 / 2.54)
(Peak V will be ~1.4x higher, I believe.)
=85,500 inches/minute
=1425 inches/sec
=7125 feet/min
=81 Miles/hr
=36 Meters/sec
<Looking for validation...>
Ah, here's an article about BMW'2 2003 V10
http://scarbsf1.com/BMW_P83/index.html
My values look ballpark accurate.

http://tinyurl.com/6am8cm
or
http://tinyurl.com/5kxobk

Sorry, went skewy on the units. sh/be per hour.

First time trying google calculator.

Post by Bigbird
any good?

[Dave Baker]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Maximum allowed bore is 98mm but if all of that were actually used the
stroke would only be 39.75mm and the bore/stroke ratio nearly 2.5. That
would create a horrible combustion chamber shape, create problems with valve
to piston clearance and make it almost impossible to get a decent
compression ratio.

My best guess is in the region of bore 92mm, stroke 45mm for a ratio of
about 2.0 which allows sufficient valve area for good power without creating
too many problems in other areas. The optimisation of the bore/stroke ratio
will have been done long ago during the V10 era and is unlikely to have
changed much when the V8s were mandated as the capacity and number of
cylinders both changed by the same percentage.

[Depresion]

Post by Dave Baker

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

Maximum allowed bore is 98mm but if all of that were actually used the
stroke would only be 39.75mm and the bore/stroke ratio nearly 2.5. That
would create a horrible combustion chamber shape, create problems with
valve to piston clearance and make it almost impossible to get a decent
compression ratio.
My best guess is in the region of bore 92mm, stroke 45mm for a ratio of
about 2.0 which allows sufficient valve area for good power without
creating too many problems in other areas. The optimisation of the
bore/stroke ratio will have been done long ago during the V10 era and is
unlikely to have changed much when the V8s were mandated as the capacity
and number of cylinders both changed by the same percentage.

ISTR reading an "advert/sponsored artical" for detuned (550bhp ish)V10s in an
old Racecar Engineer (I think could have been one of the other journals),
they listed 95mm bore 43.3mm stroke, the con rods were bloody short though at
something like 55mm.

[Dave Baker]

Post by Depresion
ISTR reading an "advert/sponsored artical" for detuned (550bhp ish)V10s in
an old Racecar Engineer (I think could have been one of the other
journals), they listed 95mm bore 43.3mm stroke, the con rods were bloody
short though at something like 55mm.

That would give a capacity of 3069cc so it wouldn't have been a legal
combination for an F1 car.

[Depresion]

Post by Dave Baker

Post by Depresion
ISTR reading an "advert/sponsored artical" for detuned (550bhp ish)V10s in
an old Racecar Engineer (I think could have been one of the other
journals), they listed 95mm bore 43.3mm stroke, the con rods were bloody
short though at something like 55mm.

That would give a capacity of 3069cc so it wouldn't have been a legal
combination for an F1 car.

Sorry typo 42.2mm.

[Agent 86]

Post by P***@2K.com
At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times
per second. How far do they travel?

To two race venues then back to the factory for analysis, sometimes just
one. So differing mileage depending on the calendar with away races
requiring air as well as truck freight. Thousands of miles in any case.
HTH.

[Ar]

At 19,000 RPM, the pistons are going up and down more than 300 times per
second. How far do they travel?

The bore is very large, and if it carries on to next season we'll all
have a stroke.