Hungary 2024 - Piastri/Norris

[Geoff]

The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.

But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

geoff

[Alan]

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
 potentially overtake him and win the race.

I don't know about that.

I think the reference to the "Sunday morning briefings" (or words to
that effect) was a reference to an agreement that past a certain point
in the race whatever the order was at that point would be the order for
the finish.

[Hornplayer9599]

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was
a team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at
the earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in
which to   potentially overtake him and win the race.

I don't know about that.
I think the reference to the "Sunday morning briefings" (or words to
that effect) was a reference to an agreement that past a certain point
in the race whatever the order was at that point would be the order for
the finish.

Granted, I may be really overthinking this, but why am I having thoughts
of Imola 1982?

[Alan]

Post by Hornplayer9599

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in
was a team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at
the earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in
which to   potentially overtake him and win the race.

I don't know about that.
I think the reference to the "Sunday morning briefings" (or words to
that effect) was a reference to an agreement that past a certain point
in the race whatever the order was at that point would be the order
for the finish.

Granted, I may be really overthinking this, but why am I having thoughts
of Imola 1982?

You're right...

...I think you are overthinking this!

😜

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Hornplayer9599

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in
was a team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past
at the earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps
in which to   potentially overtake him and win the race.

I don't know about that.
I think the reference to the "Sunday morning briefings" (or words to
that effect) was a reference to an agreement that past a certain
point in the race whatever the order was at that point would be the
order for the finish.

Granted, I may be really overthinking this, but why am I having
thoughts of Imola 1982?

I was thinking of Jerez 1997 as I watched that. OK, MV overcooked the
corner way more than JV did, but I'm still of the opinion that JV
wouldn't have stayed on track. Of course, LH's and MS's roles are
entirely different.

Phil

[Silver Skull]

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.

Yeah, but it was the wrong team tactic. Which Norris shouldn't have had
to pay for as he did nothing wrong.

Post by Geoff
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

The term "race" is not apt as it ended up being a procession decided by
team orders and not cars on the track.

[Alan]

Post by Silver Skull

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.

Yeah, but it was the wrong team tactic. Which Norris shouldn't have had
to pay for as he did nothing wrong.

Post by Geoff
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

The term "race" is not apt as it ended up being a procession decided by
team orders and not cars on the track.

Teams have had agreements between teammates for decades and it sounds
like this was one of those based on what I've read from Norris after the
race.

[Sir Tim]

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).

Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.

With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

[Alan]

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Based on what I read of Norris's remarks after the race, I think there
was pretty clearly an agreement between the two drivers that if one of
them was ahead at some still-unknown earlier point in the race, then
that driver would get the win.

That's what the radio message regarding "Sunday morning briefings" was
alluding to I think.

[Geoff]

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
  potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Based on what I read of Norris's remarks after the race, I think there
was pretty clearly an agreement between the two drivers that if one of
them was ahead at some still-unknown earlier point in the race, then
that driver would get the win.

Yeah but from lap 44 (was it) of 70 ?!!! Plenty of opportunity for real
racing between them both after that and for NOR to potentially regain
his place, if the could ...

geoff

[Alan]

Post by Geoff

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
  potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Based on what I read of Norris's remarks after the race, I think there
was pretty clearly an agreement between the two drivers that if one of
them was ahead at some still-unknown earlier point in the race, then
that driver would get the win.

Yeah but from lap 44 (was it) of 70 ?!!! Plenty of opportunity for real
racing between them both after that and for NOR to potentially regain
his place, if the could ...
geoff

Team orders have been a part of F1 since forever.

Teams make these agreements to make sure their drivers don't take each
other out.

I don't know for certain if there was an agreement or what it was, but
if there WAS an agreement, then Norris should be applauded for living up
to his agreements.

[Geoff]

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
  potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Based on what I read of Norris's remarks after the race, I think
there was pretty clearly an agreement between the two drivers that if
one of them was ahead at some still-unknown earlier point in the
race, then that driver would get the win.

Yeah but from lap 44 (was it) of 70 ?!!! Plenty of opportunity for
real racing between them both after that and for NOR to potentially
regain his place, if the could ...
geoff

Team orders have been a part of F1 since forever.
Teams make these agreements to make sure their drivers don't take each
other out.
I don't know for certain if there was an agreement or what it was, but
if there WAS an agreement, then Norris should be applauded for living up
to his agreements.

Yes, eventually. But my reasoning still stands that if he has given the
place back sooner, it would have been a simple case of 'may the best man
win'.

Unless the team agreement was that 'if somebody was ahead at 'x' point
in the race (and certainly just over half-distance) that they they must
be allowed to finish ahead of the other'. And I simply cannot believe
that would be the case.

geoff

[Alan]

Post by Geoff

Post by Alan

Post by Geoff

Post by Alan

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
  potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Based on what I read of Norris's remarks after the race, I think
there was pretty clearly an agreement between the two drivers that
if one of them was ahead at some still-unknown earlier point in the
race, then that driver would get the win.

Yeah but from lap 44 (was it) of 70 ?!!! Plenty of opportunity for
real racing between them both after that and for NOR to potentially
regain his place, if the could ...
geoff

Team orders have been a part of F1 since forever.
Teams make these agreements to make sure their drivers don't take each
other out.
I don't know for certain if there was an agreement or what it was, but
if there WAS an agreement, then Norris should be applauded for living
up to his agreements.

Yes, eventually. But my reasoning still stands that if he has given the
place back sooner, it would have been a simple case of 'may the best man
win'.
Unless the team agreement was that 'if somebody was ahead at 'x' point
in the race (and certainly just over half-distance) that they they must
be allowed to finish ahead of the other'. And I simply cannot believe
that would be the case.

Then posit another meaning for the radio transmission, “Just remember
every single Sunday morning meeting we’ve had.” as a way to get Norris
to give back the place.

It can't be about simply not taking each other out, particularly in
light of Norris's reply: “Yep, tell him to catch up then please.”

There can't be a danger of taking each other out if they're separated by
5 seconds, so I interpret that as an agreement to keep the order at some
point.

What I've read online and what makes sense to me is that the agreement
was probably to keep the order that the cars had when they made the
final pit stops, and that they only pitted Norris first in order to
never create a situation which would have put the third place car closer
to them.

[Phil Carmody]

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.

Yup, agree, unless they had a rock-hard pre-decided agreement I'm not
party to.

I'm working on the principle that NOR was faster than PIA on his third
set of tyres, and had they pitted Oscar first, Lando would have been on
his tail for 10-15 laps, and one can't say an overtake would be
impossible; Oscar was certainly making more mistakes, and it only takes
one mistake to lose a place.

Was the NOR 1st-box *really* that tactically necessary?

Post by Sir Tim
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Indeed.

Phil

[Alan]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.

Yup, agree, unless they had a rock-hard pre-decided agreement I'm not
party to.
I'm working on the principle that NOR was faster than PIA on his third
set of tyres, and had they pitted Oscar first, Lando would have been on
his tail for 10-15 laps, and one can't say an overtake would be
impossible; Oscar was certainly making more mistakes, and it only takes
one mistake to lose a place.

Ummmmm...how does that work in your mind?

Pitting Piastri first means he's essentially undercutting Norris and
building more gap after they've both pitted.

Post by Phil Carmody
Was the NOR 1st-box *really* that tactically necessary?

I think they idea was that it letting Norris pit first helped him stay
clear of net third place, Hamilton, who had already pitted for fresh
tires. If they'd pitted Piastri first, then Norris might be seeing the
gap behind him close up to the point where he would get undercut.

I think they were wrong about it, but given that they radioed Piastri to
say they wouldn't "cover Hamilton" after Hamilton's stop, it seems logical.

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Sir Tim
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Indeed.
Phil

[Alan]

Post by Alan

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Sir Tim

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
  potentially overtake him and win the race.

Difficult to imagine this sort of situation arising when Ron Dennis was in
charge (also difficult to imagine Schumacher/Senna/Vettel complying).
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.

Yup, agree, unless they had a rock-hard pre-decided agreement I'm not
party to.
I'm working on the principle that NOR was faster than PIA on his third
set of tyres, and had they pitted Oscar first, Lando would have been on
his tail for 10-15 laps, and one can't say an overtake would be
impossible; Oscar was certainly making more mistakes, and it only takes
one mistake to lose a place.

Ummmmm...how does that work in your mind?
Pitting Piastri first means he's essentially undercutting Norris and
building more gap after they've both pitted.

Post by Phil Carmody
Was the NOR 1st-box *really* that tactically necessary?

I think they idea was that it letting Norris pit first helped him stay
clear of net third place, Hamilton, who had already pitted for fresh
tires. If they'd pitted Piastri first, then Norris might be seeing the
gap behind him close up to the point where he would get undercut.
I think they were wrong about it, but given that they radioed Piastri to
say they wouldn't "cover Hamilton" after Hamilton's stop, it seems logical.

Confirmed.

They told Piastri they didn't need to cover Hamilton (because he as
further from him) and when they told Norris to box, the gap to Hamilton
was rapidly closing (1.5-2 seconds a lap):

"The gap to Hamilton is 25.5. We will box to cover them."

And the message to Piastri as Norris pitted was:

"OK, Oscar. Lando has pitted to cover Hamilton. We'll manage that
situation".

What else could that mean?

They literally tell him in another message, "Don't worry about Lando".

Sound a lot like, "This was all agreed"

[~misfit~]

Post by Phil Carmody

Post by Sir Tim
Given that Norris is well ahead of Piastri in the WDC, McLaren should have
let Lando win. Tough on Oscar, but F1 is a tough sport and his day will
come.

Yup, agree, unless they had a rock-hard pre-decided agreement I'm not
party to.
I'm working on the principle that NOR was faster than PIA on his third
set of tyres, and had they pitted Oscar first, Lando would have been on
his tail for 10-15 laps, and one can't say an overtake would be
impossible; Oscar was certainly making more mistakes, and it only takes
one mistake to lose a place.

I've noticed that Oscar almost always fades in the latter half of a race (hence I've never picked
him in the pool to win). F1 races are generally twice as long as the feeder series races so I've
been expecting to see Oscar start to increase his stamina over full race distance but it's yet to
happen.

Post by Phil Carmody
Was the NOR 1st-box *really* that tactically necessary?

Post by Sir Tim
With McLaren apparently dominant it is not beyond the bounds of possibility
that Norris could win the WDC - I just hope he doesn’t miss out by less
than 7 points

Indeed.

Yup. IMO McLaren should have let Lando take the win due to championship standings (and Lando says
that's what he was trying to convince them of on the radio but was always going to give the place
to Oscar if he couldn't).

I think Lando also knows that Oscar's not great in the last part of a race, hence him saying 'tell
him to close up and I'll let him past' (or words to that effect).

[Edmund]

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was a
team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at the
earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in which to
 potentially overtake him and win the race.
geoff

Maybe, but he had to slow down and give away a good part of his lead
which is risky.
Well at least he didn't say -go swivel-.

[Alan]

Post by Edmund

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was
a team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at
the earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in
which to   potentially overtake him and win the race.
geoff

Maybe, but he had to slow down and give away a good part of his lead
which is risky.
Well at least he didn't say  -go swivel-.

In the end, he showed his character.

[Geoff]

Post by Edmund

Post by Geoff
The call to swap places was fair enough, given that calling PIA in was
a team tactic.
But I reckon NOR shot himself in the foot by not letting PIA past at
the earliest opportunity. If he had, he would have had more laps in
which to   potentially overtake him and win the race.
geoff

Maybe, but he had to slow down and give away a good part of his lead
which is risky.
Well at least he didn't say  -go swivel-.

All but, up until nearly the end.

geoff