Discussion:
The last word?
(too old to reply)
Sir Tim
2019-06-13 17:59:24 UTC
Permalink
I doubt it :-) but Joe Saward's view seems sensible:

"You can blame the rules, if you like, but they were written that way
for a reason and while one can understand that people felt it was harsh,
the bottom line was that Vettel had made a crucial mistake – again – and
lost the race as a result. You cannot have things both ways. If one
creates a rigid rule structure, without the possibility to be
interpreted in different ways, one is condemned to have some decisions
that are too harsh or too lenient because one does not have flexibility.
Not allowing the stewards to interpret the rules and issue punishments
that perfectly fit the circumstances means that this sort of thing is
inevitable. It should perhaps be added that Vettel was quite fortunate
to avoid any punishment for his daft theatricals after the chequered
flag as in previous ages he might have been heavily punished for his
disrespect of the sport. For me, the most important thing that happened
in Montreal was the fact that Ferrari showed that Mercedes can be beaten."

Full article here:

https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00514
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
CS
2019-06-13 18:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced senior driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the rookies twitched there!!
Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who have more recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both agreed with the penalty.
And there is precedent for such a penalty - MV/KR and MV made a conscious effort to get out of KR's way.
Alan Baker
2019-06-13 20:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced senior
driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the rookies
twitched there!! Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who have more
recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group
and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both agreed with the
penalty. And there is precedent for such a penalty - MV/KR and MV
made a conscious effort to get out of KR's way.
It is false that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the
penalty.

As far as I know, Rosberg and now Palmer make two...

...against everyone else.
CS
2019-06-14 09:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by CS
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced senior
driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the rookies
twitched there!! Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who have more
recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group
and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both agreed with the
penalty. And there is precedent for such a penalty - MV/KR and MV
made a conscious effort to get out of KR's way.
It is false that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the
penalty.
As far as I know, Rosberg and now Palmer make two...
...against everyone else.
Baker - you need to read very carefully the very, very simple english words that I wrote - not answer what is written with your pre-meditated spin.

I did not write "that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the penalty."

I actually wrote:
"2 drivers who have more recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group and most other ex F1 drivers commentating"

Take careful note of "more recent" and "most other". Most of the F1 drivers commentating haven't been in a car for years and still think they are experts - ex = has been, (s)pert = drip under pressure.

As for your own racing expertise. You race in a lowly Formula Ford racing class, hardly F1 so I think I'll go by Emmanuele Pirro rather than you.
And your "OT:Worse yet" post is an embarrassment to yourself. You clearly didn't use your mirrors, using your vast experience racing against a rookie, when you could have opened the steering to avoid the accident. Just like LH did at the Monaco chicane to minimise MV's nudge.

You conflate past F1 experience with current knowledge and precedent of racing rules - which as Joe Saward points out have been developed by the demands from the current F1 drivers, not the retired ones.

Suggest you stick to commentating on FF.

Oh, I've never sat in let alone driven a single seater, so I'll go by the stewards and not the belly aching armchair experts on anti social media and groups.
Sir Tim
2019-06-14 17:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
Post by Alan Baker
Post by CS
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced senior
driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the rookies
twitched there!! Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who have more
recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group
and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both agreed with the
penalty. And there is precedent for such a penalty - MV/KR and MV
made a conscious effort to get out of KR's way.
It is false that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the
penalty.
As far as I know, Rosberg and now Palmer make two...
...against everyone else.
Baker - you need to read very carefully the very, very simple english
words that I wrote - not answer what is written with your pre-meditated spin.
I did not write "that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the penalty."
"2 drivers who have more recent F1 experience than certainly anyone
commenting in this group and most other ex F1 drivers commentating"
Take careful note of "more recent" and "most other". Most of the F1
drivers commentating haven't been in a car for years and still think they
are experts - ex = has been, (s)pert = drip under pressure.
As for your own racing expertise. You race in a lowly Formula Ford
racing class, hardly F1 so I think I'll go by Emmanuele Pirro rather than you.
And your "OT:Worse yet" post is an embarrassment to yourself. You
clearly didn't use your mirrors, using your vast experience racing
against a rookie, when you could have opened the steering to avoid the
accident. Just like LH did at the Monaco chicane to minimise MV's nudge.
You conflate past F1 experience with current knowledge and precedent of
racing rules - which as Joe Saward points out have been developed by the
demands from the current F1 drivers, not the retired ones.
Suggest you stick to commentating on FF.
Oh, I've never sat in let alone driven a single seater, so I'll go by the
stewards and not the belly aching armchair experts on anti social media and groups.
I don’t know why you bother. After the first few I now simply delete
Baker’s posts without reading them. Shame, because he’s clearly an
intelligent guy with racing experience but he obviously has a huge ego and
suffers from usenet diarrhea
--
Sir Tim
t***@gmail.com
2019-06-14 23:10:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Tim
I don’t know why you bother.
Well, he seems like an idiot.
Alan Baker
2019-06-18 04:02:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Tim
Post by CS
Post by Alan Baker
Post by CS
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced senior
driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the rookies
twitched there!! Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who have more
recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting in this group
and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both agreed with the
penalty. And there is precedent for such a penalty - MV/KR and MV
made a conscious effort to get out of KR's way.
It is false that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the
penalty.
As far as I know, Rosberg and now Palmer make two...
...against everyone else.
Baker - you need to read very carefully the very, very simple english
words that I wrote - not answer what is written with your pre-meditated spin.
I did not write "that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the penalty."
"2 drivers who have more recent F1 experience than certainly anyone
commenting in this group and most other ex F1 drivers commentating"
Take careful note of "more recent" and "most other". Most of the F1
drivers commentating haven't been in a car for years and still think they
are experts - ex = has been, (s)pert = drip under pressure.
As for your own racing expertise. You race in a lowly Formula Ford
racing class, hardly F1 so I think I'll go by Emmanuele Pirro rather than you.
And your "OT:Worse yet" post is an embarrassment to yourself. You
clearly didn't use your mirrors, using your vast experience racing
against a rookie, when you could have opened the steering to avoid the
accident. Just like LH did at the Monaco chicane to minimise MV's nudge.
You conflate past F1 experience with current knowledge and precedent of
racing rules - which as Joe Saward points out have been developed by the
demands from the current F1 drivers, not the retired ones.
Suggest you stick to commentating on FF.
Oh, I've never sat in let alone driven a single seater, so I'll go by the
stewards and not the belly aching armchair experts on anti social media and groups.
I don’t know why you bother. After the first few I now simply delete
Baker’s posts without reading them. Shame, because he’s clearly an
intelligent guy with racing experience but he obviously has a huge ego and
suffers from usenet diarrhea
I admit I like to argue...

...but I don't suffer fools in silence...

...and there are so many here.
Bigbird
2019-06-18 11:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Sir Tim
I don’t know why you bother. After the first few I now simply delete
Baker’s posts without reading them. Shame, because he’s clearly an
intelligent guy with racing experience but he obviously has a huge
ego and suffers from usenet diarrhea
I admit I like to argue...
...but I don't suffer fools in silence...
You make everyone of us suffer one particular fool interminably.
Post by Alan Baker
...and there are so many here.
Even closer to the truth. You are too stupid to ever shut up even if it
means lying in an attempt to diminish the opinion of others.
--
Trump fact check:
The grand total as of Sunday: 4,913 false claims
Last week’s total: 31 false claims
That’s the 75th-worst week of his presidency out of 116 weeks so far.
CS
2019-06-19 16:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
What driving has Joe Saward ever done...
...or is that suddenly unimportant as a metric?

You really the complete fool - and I guess the useful one that talks a load of bollards.

Any driving that JS has done is actually completely irrelevant and unimportant, he wasn't talking about his driving in that point, or actually anyone else's.

This is such very very simple english, but clearly remains beyond your comprehension, but I'll still repeat it.

What JS pointed out is "the current rules have been demanded by the current drivers not the retired ones".

One doesn't need to be a driver to understand that statement. It is as simple as that.
Alan Baker
2019-06-19 16:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Alan Baker
What driving has Joe Saward ever done...
...or is that suddenly unimportant as a metric?
You really the complete fool - and I guess the useful one that talks a load of bollards.
Any driving that JS has done is actually completely irrelevant and
unimportant, he wasn't talking about his driving in that point, or
actually anyone else's.
This is such very very simple english, but clearly remains beyond
your comprehension, but I'll still repeat it.
What JS pointed out is "the current rules have been demanded by the
current drivers not the retired ones".
One doesn't need to be a driver to understand that statement. It is as simple as that.
Perhaps you should learn to use Usenet better...
...because your post is marked as being in reply to this one:

<qe9nou$rm2$***@gioia.aioe.org>

...and that post doesn't contain the text you quoted.
CS
2019-06-20 06:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Baker the Fool ... I replied on Google Groups and included your comment on JS.

Maybe a foolish computer your end to go with its owner whose only mealymouthed response is to try and evade the actual issue.
Alan Baker
2019-06-20 07:10:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
Baker the Fool ... I replied on Google Groups and included your comment on JS.
So you lied in that you formulated quoted text by me that doesn't exist
in the post to which you replied.

Alan Baker
2019-06-18 04:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
Post by Alan Baker
Post by CS
Vettel made an elementary rookie mistake that an experienced
senior driver and a 4 time WC shouldn't be making. None of the
rookies twitched there!! Both Rosberg and Palmer, 2 drivers who
have more recent F1 experience than certainly anyone commenting
in this group and most other ex F1 drivers commentating, both
agreed with the penalty. And there is precedent for such a
penalty - MV/KR and MV made a conscious effort to get out of KR's
way.
It is false that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed
with the penalty.
As far as I know, Rosberg and now Palmer make two...
...against everyone else.
Baker - you need to read very carefully the very, very simple english
words that I wrote - not answer what is written with your
pre-meditated spin.
I did not write "that "most other ex F1 drivers commentating" agreed with the penalty."
I actually wrote: "2 drivers who have more recent F1 experience than
certainly anyone commenting in this group and most other ex F1
drivers commentating"
Mea culpa.

You overvalue "recent" experience...

...and Webber's experience is very recent anyway.
Post by CS
Take careful note of "more recent" and "most other". Most of the F1
drivers commentating haven't been in a car for years and still think
they are experts - ex = has been, (s)pert = drip under pressure.
You lack anything like a clue.
Post by CS
As for your own racing expertise. You race in a lowly Formula Ford
racing class, hardly F1 so I think I'll go by Emmanuele Pirro rather
than you. And your "OT:Worse yet" post is an embarrassment to
yourself. You clearly didn't use your mirrors, using your vast
experience racing against a rookie, when you could have opened the
steering to avoid the accident. Just like LH did at the Monaco
chicane to minimise MV's nudge.
You mean the starting ground for so many F1 champions.

Racing is racing.

Yes: I didn't catch that a rookie had missed any kind of reasonable
braking point.
Post by CS
You conflate past F1 experience with current knowledge and precedent
of racing rules - which as Joe Saward points out have been developed
by the demands from the current F1 drivers, not the retired ones.
What driving has Joe Saward ever done...

...or is that suddenly unimportant as a metric?
Post by CS
Suggest you stick to commentating on FF.
Oh, I've never sat in let alone driven a single seater, so I'll go by
the stewards and not the belly aching armchair experts on anti social
media and groups.
You might want to try it...

...if any sanctioning body out there will let you.
Bigbird
2019-06-13 20:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Tim
"You can blame the rules, if you like, but they were written that way
for a reason and while one can understand that people felt it was
harsh, the bottom line was that Vettel had made a crucial mistake –
again – and lost the race as a result. You cannot have things both
ways. If one creates a rigid rule structure, without the possibility
to be interpreted in different ways, one is condemned to have some
decisions that are too harsh or too lenient because one does not have
flexibility. Not allowing the stewards to interpret the rules and
issue punishments that perfectly fit the circumstances means that
this sort of thing is inevitable. It should perhaps be added that
Vettel was quite fortunate to avoid any punishment for his daft
theatricals after the chequered flag as in previous ages he might
have been heavily punished for his disrespect of the sport. For me,
the most important thing that happened in Montreal was the fact that
Ferrari showed that Mercedes can be beaten."
https://www.motorsportweek.com/joesaward/id/00514
"You can argue that such decisions are bad for the sport but that is
only because people do not understand the decisions - and if
commentators do not help them to understand better then I would argue
that the fault is in the communication, not in the decision."

Try telling these armchair critics that the stewards were just doing
their job... ;)
--
Trump fact check:
The grand total as of Sunday: 4,913 false claims
Last week’s total: 31 false claims
That’s the 75th-worst week of his presidency out of 116 weeks so far.
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