Discussion:
Head Butter Boy has passed the baton
(too old to reply)
M2T
2018-06-10 23:53:02 UTC
Permalink
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-11 00:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Oh poor M2Tit.
Please take care of yourself during this difficult time.
~misfit~
2018-06-11 02:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.

On Verstappen - it seems that after his Monaco debacle and his team publicly
criticising him for the first time he *may* have turned a corner and might
be excercising a bit of restraint. I hope for his sake that he can keep it
up.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
DumbedDownUSA
2018-06-11 05:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually
without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to
impress his home crowd and win the race on the first lap.
If you put yourself on the outside at the start of a race you are more
likely to be "unlucky".
--
If I am not the real DDUSA I must be the overweight attention seeking
loser sitting on my mothers couch in underpants I haven't changed in a
week.
Trump averages eight falsehoods a day; how you doin'?
~misfit~
2018-06-11 08:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually
without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to
impress his home crowd and win the race on the first lap.
If you put yourself on the outside at the start of a race you are more
likely to be "unlucky".
True. However (going by what I've heard in the NZ media) Hartley was getting
told that he's not in an endurance racing now and to not sit back and wait
for things to come to him. Damned if you do and damned if you don't...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
M2T
2018-06-11 08:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually
without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to
impress his home crowd and win the race on the first lap.
If you put yourself on the outside at the start of a race you are more
likely to be "unlucky".
That's bollocks. Vettel was on the inside last year and Head Butt Boy
took his nose off.
Alan Baker
2018-06-11 06:28:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
Quick question for you:

As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...

...who was ahead?

Martin Brundle...

Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.

...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
larkim
2018-06-11 08:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
) on a gentle right hander at
high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.

Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy. But these things happen in races.
~misfit~
2018-06-11 09:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through
qually without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying
to impress his home crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have
expected Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the
clip on youtube at http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a
gentle right hander at high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled
off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy. But these things happen in races.
Actually Brundle seemed to say that because motor-mouth Croft had already
knee-jerk reacted to seeing Hartley almost flip then hit Strolls car and he
didn't want to contradict his co-commentator. "HARTLEYS CRASHED INTO THE
FENCE - HE'S CRASHED INTO STROLL OUT TOO. THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT
BYSTANDER IN THAT". As usual Croft sees something happen and starts yelling
and blathering without knowing what happened and leaves Brundle the
unenviable job of trying to then disect what happened within the constraints
of what his compadre Croft just babbled.

I could hear in Brundles voice that he was trying to not say Croft had it
all wrong so he found middle ground. After someone's who you work next to
every race has just yelled "THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER IN THAT"
you're going to try to say things that allow him some dignity.

It can be heard in that youtube video - they are a team and as such they
work together.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bigbird
2018-06-11 10:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through
qually without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver
trying to impress his home crowd and win the race on the first
lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have
expected Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the
clip on youtube at http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on
a gentle right hander at high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled
off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to
being racy. But these things happen in races.
Actually Brundle seemed to say that because motor-mouth Croft had
already knee-jerk reacted to seeing Hartley almost flip then hit
Strolls car and he didn't want to contradict his co-commentator.
"HARTLEYS CRASHED INTO THE FENCE - HE'S CRASHED INTO STROLL OUT TOO.
THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER IN THAT". As usual Croft sees
something happen and starts yelling and blathering without knowing
what happened and leaves Brundle the unenviable job of trying to then
disect what happened within the constraints of what his compadre
Croft just babbled.
I could hear in Brundles voice that he was trying to not say Croft
had it all wrong so he found middle ground. After someone's who you
work next to every race has just yelled "THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT
BYSTANDER IN THAT" you're going to try to say things that allow him
some dignity.
It can be heard in that youtube video - they are a team and as such
they work together.
Of FFS. It's a commentators job to commentate on what he sees in real
time... not wait for the telemetry to be examined.

Brundle has his own eyes and doesn't need anyone to tell him what he
saw.

Nor is their relationship so poor he needs to tippy toe around a
correction.

When the angle showing Stroll losing the back end was shown it was
commentated on directly.
Alister
2018-06-11 11:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through
qually without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver
trying to impress his home crowd and win the race on the first
lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have
expected Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the
clip on youtube at http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a
gentle right hander at high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled
off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to
being racy. But these things happen in races.
Actually Brundle seemed to say that because motor-mouth Croft had
already knee-jerk reacted to seeing Hartley almost flip then hit
Strolls car and he didn't want to contradict his co-commentator.
"HARTLEYS CRASHED INTO THE FENCE - HE'S CRASHED INTO STROLL OUT TOO.
THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER IN THAT". As usual Croft sees
something happen and starts yelling and blathering without knowing what
happened and leaves Brundle the unenviable job of trying to then disect
what happened within the constraints of what his compadre Croft just
babbled.
I could hear in Brundles voice that he was trying to not say Croft had
it all wrong so he found middle ground. After someone's who you work
next to every race has just yelled "THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER
IN THAT" you're going to try to say things that allow him some dignity.
It can be heard in that youtube video - they are a team and as such
they work together.
Of FFS. It's a commentators job to commentate on what he sees in real
time... not wait for the telemetry to be examined.
Brundle has his own eyes and doesn't need anyone to tell him what he
saw.
Nor is their relationship so poor he needs to tippy toe around a
correction.
When the angle showing Stroll losing the back end was shown it was
commentated on directly.
Indeed Murray never worried about disagreeing with hunt (or Vice Versa).

in fact it was often the disagreements that made that pair a commentary
team that has not yet been surpassed.
--
Breadth-first search is the bulldozer of science.
-- Randy Goebel
~misfit~
2018-06-11 14:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through
qually without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver
trying to impress his home crowd and win the race on the first
lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have
expected Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the
clip on youtube at http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on
a gentle right hander at high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled
off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to
being racy. But these things happen in races.
Actually Brundle seemed to say that because motor-mouth Croft had
already knee-jerk reacted to seeing Hartley almost flip then hit
Strolls car and he didn't want to contradict his co-commentator.
"HARTLEYS CRASHED INTO THE FENCE - HE'S CRASHED INTO STROLL OUT TOO.
THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER IN THAT". As usual Croft sees
something happen and starts yelling and blathering without knowing
what happened and leaves Brundle the unenviable job of trying to then
disect what happened within the constraints of what his compadre
Croft just babbled.
I could hear in Brundles voice that he was trying to not say Croft
had it all wrong so he found middle ground. After someone's who you
work next to every race has just yelled "THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT
BYSTANDER IN THAT" you're going to try to say things that allow him
some dignity.
It can be heard in that youtube video - they are a team and as such
they work together.
Of FFS. It's a commentators job to commentate on what he sees in real
time... not wait for the telemetry to be examined.
Brundle has his own eyes and doesn't need anyone to tell him what he
saw.
Nor is their relationship so poor he needs to tippy toe around a
correction.
It's fine, you don't get it.
Post by Bigbird
When the angle showing Stroll losing the back end was shown it was
commentated on directly.
Did Croft than say "I got the wrong end of that one" or similar? Nope,
because that's not how he or this commentary team work.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Sir Tim
2018-06-12 07:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through
qually without bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver
trying to impress his home crowd and win the race on the first
lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have
expected Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the
clip on youtube at http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on
a gentle right hander at high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled
off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to
being racy. But these things happen in races.
Actually Brundle seemed to say that because motor-mouth Croft had
already knee-jerk reacted to seeing Hartley almost flip then hit
Strolls car and he didn't want to contradict his co-commentator.
"HARTLEYS CRASHED INTO THE FENCE - HE'S CRASHED INTO STROLL OUT TOO.
THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT BYSTANDER IN THAT". As usual Croft sees
something happen and starts yelling and blathering without knowing
what happened and leaves Brundle the unenviable job of trying to then
disect what happened within the constraints of what his compadre
Croft just babbled.
I could hear in Brundles voice that he was trying to not say Croft
had it all wrong so he found middle ground. After someone's who you
work next to every race has just yelled "THE WILLIAMS AN INNOCENT
BYSTANDER IN THAT" you're going to try to say things that allow him
some dignity.
It can be heard in that youtube video - they are a team and as such
they work together.
Of FFS. It's a commentators job to commentate on what he sees in real
time... not wait for the telemetry to be examined.
Brundle has his own eyes and doesn't need anyone to tell him what he
saw.
Nor is their relationship so poor he needs to tippy toe around a
correction.
When the angle showing Stroll losing the back end was shown it was
commentated on directly.
+1
--
Sir Tim
Alan Baker
2018-06-11 15:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy. But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the car
into a slide.
larkim
2018-06-11 15:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy. But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the car
into a slide.
There's a reasonable argument that Stroll was on a tighter line to avoid
Hartley, and that tighter (less conventional) line was what caused him to
lose the back end.

But all in all I'd rather not dissect the precise causes for each crash
as that implies we'd rather avoid that situation in the future - and whilst
no-one wants crashes because they can injure people, we also want hard,
fair racing and taking all risk out of the equation doesn't sit well with
that.
Alan Baker
2018-06-11 16:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed. It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy. But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the car
into a slide.
There's a reasonable argument that Stroll was on a tighter line to avoid
Hartley, and that tighter (less conventional) line was what caused him to
lose the back end.
But all in all I'd rather not dissect the precise causes for each crash
as that implies we'd rather avoid that situation in the future - and whilst
no-one wants crashes because they can injure people, we also want hard,
fair racing and taking all risk out of the equation doesn't sit well with
that.
Absolutely.

I found the characterization of the incident in the post to which I
replied pretty biased against Stroll, and so I pointed out a different
interpretation.

Note that I didn't say that Hartley had done anything I thought deserved
a penalty.

:-)
geoff
2018-06-11 21:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed.  It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy.  But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the car
into a slide.
Or was it ....

geoff
keefy
2018-06-12 20:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed.  It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy.  But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the car
into a slide.
Or was it ....
geoff
Is your point that there is a difference between deliberate and
intentional? I would not think for one minute he did it intentionally
but I accept it could be called deliberate in that his actions at the
controls were what caused it.
Alan Baker
2018-06-12 20:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by keefy
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed.  It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy.  But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the
car into a slide.
Or was it ....
geoff
Is your point that there is a difference between deliberate and
intentional? I would not think for one minute he did it intentionally
but I accept it could be called deliberate in that his actions at the
controls were what caused it.
That's a huge assumption. The car could have been upset in the turbulent
air of traffic or just the close passable of Hartley's car might have
been sufficient.
geoff
2018-06-12 22:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by keefy
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by ~misfit~
Post by M2T
to Stroll to fuck up the first lap.
Yep. Needless to say I'm annoyed. Hartley finally got through qually without
bad luck only to run afoul of the pay driver trying to impress his home
crowd and win the race on the first lap.
As Stroll and Hartley went through turn four...
...who was ahead?
Martin Brundle...
Whom I'm pretty sure knows more about it than you do.
...suggests that the one trying to be too bold at the start was Hartley.
Even if Hartley was being a bit too bold, he still shouldn't have expected
Stroll to be on full opposite lock (see 21s into the the clip on youtube at
http://youtu.be/RwPn_GCa3mU ) on a gentle right hander at
high speed.  It's a move plenty have pulled off successfully in the past.
Due respect to Brundle, I'm sure he's right that to a degree Hartley
contributed by being in the right place at the wrong time due to being
racy.  But these things happen in races.
Absolutely they do. But it wasn't like Stroll deliberately put the
car into a slide.
Or was it ....
geoff
Is your point that there is a difference between deliberate and
intentional? I would not think for one minute he did it intentionally
but I accept it could be called deliberate in that his actions at the
controls were what caused it.
Joke. He may be a pay-driver but he's not SV ;-)

geoff

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