Discussion:
Rule Changes? Ground Effects and Lower Degradation Tires
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D Munz
2019-07-19 11:50:44 UTC
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I'm surprised this hasn't popped up here yet. There is lots of reporting now (Autosport, Pitpass etc.) about the proposed rule changes and that they will include a return to ground effects (through floor tunneling) and a move to lower degradation tires from 2021.

Maybe we will even see a "fan car"! Or maybe not...

Overall this may be a good thing IF all the teams can afford the R&D. I don't have the deep knowledge of F1 history so I'll ask - when did the mandate for flat floors come in? How long has it been since teams were allowed to muck around under the cars and will it really matter?

FWIW
DLM
Dan the Man
2019-07-19 12:14:26 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm surprised this hasn't popped up here yet. There is lots of reporting now (Autosport, Pitpass etc.) about the proposed rule changes and that they will include a return to ground effects (through floor tunneling) and a move to lower degradation tires from 2021.
Maybe we will even see a "fan car"! Or maybe not...
Overall this may be a good thing IF all the teams can afford the R&D. I don't have the deep knowledge of F1 history so I'll ask - when did the mandate for flat floors come in? How long has it been since teams were allowed to muck around under the cars and will it really matter?
FWIW
DLM
I'm not an aero expert by any stretch, but I do recall that one of the cars at Silverstone was noticeably slower with a damaged floor.

Dan
Bigbird
2019-07-19 17:54:54 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm surprised this hasn't popped up here yet. There is lots of
reporting now (Autosport, Pitpass etc.) about the proposed rule
changes and that they will include a return to ground effects
(through floor tunneling) and a move to lower degradation tires from
2021.
It only popped up on my feed this morning but it makes good reading.
Post by D Munz
Maybe we will even see a "fan car"! Or maybe not...
Overall this may be a good thing IF all the teams can afford the R&D.
I don't have the deep knowledge of F1 history so I'll ask - when did
the mandate for flat floors come in? How long has it been since
teams were allowed to muck around under the cars and will it really
matter?
I got the impression it was very restrictive so the ability for a team
to buy a big advantage was relatively small. Most of it 'sounds' good.

I don't think the current tyres are very far from where they need to be
to keep the race alive and even more strategic choices will be viable
if the cars can race more closely (and do so without ruining their
tyres) and we can do away with huge DRS zones or perhaps altogether,
finally.
--
Trump fact check:
The grand total as of Sunday: 4,913 false claims
Last week’s total: 31 false claims
That’s the 75th-worst week of his presidency out of 116 weeks so far.
John
2019-07-19 20:58:32 UTC
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What's the status of the proposed budget cap? Merc and Ferrari aren't happy but most of the other teams are already under it. Not sure about Red Bull.
~misfit~
2019-07-20 02:29:50 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm surprised this hasn't popped up here yet. There is lots of reporting now (Autosport, Pitpass etc.) about the proposed rule changes and that they will include a return to ground effects (through floor tunneling) and a move to lower degradation tires from 2021.
I've been watching this unfold for a few days. It looks interesting, going the right way IMO. The
thing I'm hoping for most w/r/t tyres is that they won't 'shed' so much and so decrease the penalty
for a driver going off-line (for making overtakes etc.). You see the pick-up on tyres post-race in
parc firme. Getting some of that on tyres in the race means you lose a huge chunk of traction
instantly and it takes at least a lap to clean them off again.
Post by D Munz
Maybe we will even see a "fan car"! Or maybe not...
Overall this may be a good thing IF all the teams can afford the R&D. I don't have the deep knowledge of F1 history so I'll ask - when did the mandate for flat floors come in? How long has it been since teams were allowed to muck around under the cars and will it really matter?
The 'plank' was introduced in 1994 as part of a raft of changes following the death of Senna. Part
of the reason for its introduction was to limit any ground effects.
Post by D Munz
FWIW
DLM
Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
Michael Gooding
2019-07-21 09:16:54 UTC
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Good point, Shaun. Senna lost ground effect when the car bottomed out didn't he? So any irregularities in the surface could be disastrous; we'll need dead flat, perfectly smooth Tilkedromes. Glorious!

Mike Gooding
--------------
~misfit~
2019-07-21 23:26:01 UTC
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Post by Michael Gooding
Good point, Shaun. Senna lost ground effect when the car bottomed out didn't he? So any irregularities in the surface could be disastrous; we'll need dead flat, perfectly smooth Tilkedromes. Glorious!
Mike Gooding
--------------
I think with Sennas crash it was more a failure of the hasty steering mod done to the car or
(whisper it) driver input. (Maybe trying to avoid debris and losing control.) Full ground effects
had been essentially ruled out of F1 *before* the start of the 1994 season I think (my memory's a
bit hazy). My initial answer was written after a quick refresher on Google / Wikipedia but now on
further research I'm fairly sure Sennas car wasn't using ground effects. Also it was William's
first year without their active suspension.

Newey said this in 2017:

“I messed up the transition from active suspension [in 1993] back to passive and designed a car
that was aerodynamically unstable, in which Ayrton attempted to do things the car was not capable
of doing.”

“Whether he did or didn’t get a puncture, his taking the inside, faster-but-bumpier line in a car
that was aerodynamically unstable would have made the car difficult to control, even for him.”

<https://www.racefans.net/2017/11/03/newey-gives-new-insight-into-sennas-1994-crash-and-why-he-feels-guilty-over-his-death/>

+++++++++++++++++

F1 aren't planning on going back to full-on ground effects, more like the type of designs seen in
Indycar. These cars can follow very closely but aren't prone to 'coming unstuck' as badly as early
semi-sealed floor F1 ground effect cars. This newer generation of ground effect isn't all or
nothing, it gradually decreases with distance from the surface and loosing (most of) it on a (very)
poor surface is more akin to what happens now when an F1 cars front wing loses laminar airflow.
They just understeer somewhat rather than go straight off the track.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
t***@gmail.com
2019-07-22 00:08:02 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Michael Gooding
Good point, Shaun. Senna lost ground effect when the car bottomed out didn't he? So any irregularities in the surface could be disastrous; we'll need dead flat, perfectly smooth Tilkedromes. Glorious!
Mike Gooding
--------------
I think with Sennas crash it was more a failure of the hasty steering mod done to the car or
(whisper it) driver input. (Maybe trying to avoid debris and losing control.) Full ground effects
had been essentially ruled out of F1 *before* the start of the 1994 season I think (my memory's a
bit hazy). My initial answer was written after a quick refresher on Google / Wikipedia but now on
further research I'm fairly sure Sennas car wasn't using ground effects. Also it was William's
first year without their active suspension.
“I messed up the transition from active suspension [in 1993] back to passive and designed a car
that was aerodynamically unstable, in which Ayrton attempted to do things the car was not capable
of doing.”
“Whether he did or didn’t get a puncture, his taking the inside, faster-but-bumpier line in a car
that was aerodynamically unstable would have made the car difficult to control, even for him.”
<https://www.racefans.net/2017/11/03/newey-gives-new-insight-into-sennas-1994-crash-and-why-he-feels-guilty-over-his-death/>
+++++++++++++++++
F1 aren't planning on going back to full-on ground effects, more like the type of designs seen in
Indycar. These cars can follow very closely but aren't prone to 'coming unstuck' as badly as early
semi-sealed floor F1 ground effect cars. This newer generation of ground effect isn't all or
nothing, it gradually decreases with distance from the surface and loosing (most of) it on a (very)
poor surface is more akin to what happens now when an F1 cars front wing loses laminar airflow.
They just understeer somewhat rather than go straight off the track.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
You have set the record for excessive punctuation in a post
and longest signature in history.
t***@gmail.com
2019-07-22 00:13:18 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
(whisper it)
you fag

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