Discussion:
Quality of broadcasts in 1985
(too old to reply)
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-08 03:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in TV
images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR set to
slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in 85, there
seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at least it was
clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this year, which didn't
exist before this. Was some kind of digital broadcast standard
introduced in this year?

Yousuf Khan
Geoff May
2020-06-08 16:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in TV
images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR set to
slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in 85, there
seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at least it was
clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this year, which didn't
exist before this. Was some kind of digital broadcast standard
introduced in this year?
    Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.

Cheers

Geoff
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-09 02:14:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in TV
images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR set
to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in 85,
there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at least
it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this year,
which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital broadcast
standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.

Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-09 02:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
    Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?

Yousuf Khan
Brian Lawrence
2020-06-09 06:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's
onwards. I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of
quality in TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken
off of a VCR set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the
mark). But in 85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher
resolution, at least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant
replays this year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of
digital broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often
happens, where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general
public.
     Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
I don't know the answer, but some brief research:

Before 1956 the only way of recording live tv was by recording it to
cine film by placing a cine camera in front of a TV screen. This process
was originally called kinescope.

In 1956 Ampex introduced 2 inch video tape and recording systems
(prompted by Bing Crosby), followed soon after by RCA. This became known
as Quadruplex tape. Types A, B & C systems were introduced in 1976,
using 1 inch tapes.

Cassettes were first introduced in 1969 (Sony's U-Matic) and then
Betacam (1982).

Digital systems were introduced in 1995.

Wikipedia has articles on most of those systems, formats, recorders.

Reading some of those I also found that 'instant replay' was first used
in 1963 (not necessarily in F1). The first home VCRs (Sony) went on sale
in 1971.

<https://www.nexttv.com/news/timeline-fun-facts-112619>
b***@topmail.co.nz
2020-06-09 10:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
    Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
Yousuf Khan
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
Dan the Man
2020-06-10 12:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
    Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
Yousuf Khan
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...

Dan
Brian Lawrence
2020-06-10 13:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan the Man
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
    Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
Yousuf Khan
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...
That takes me back a bit, we had one of those circa 1987 - when I say we
I mean the computer centre where I was working.
Geoff May
2020-06-10 16:08:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Lawrence
[snipped]
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...
That takes me back a bit, we had one of those circa 1987 - when I say we
I mean the computer centre where I was working.
I remember the first IBM mainframe I worked with, it was a 4341. I had
only been working for about 3 months and the mainframe got a memory
upgrade. I think it was from 256Kb to 512Kb and the new memory card cost
more than my father's house (I was living in South Africa at the time).

Cheers

Geoff
keithr0
2020-06-11 12:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff May
Post by Brian Lawrence
[snipped]
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...
That takes me back a bit, we had one of those circa 1987 - when I say
we I mean the computer centre where I was working.
I remember the first IBM mainframe I worked with, it was a 4341. I had
only been working for about 3 months and the mainframe got a memory
upgrade. I think it was from 256Kb to 512Kb and the new memory card cost
more than my father's house (I was living in South Africa at the time).
In the mid '90s the storage servers that I was working on had 3 sizes of
memory board, 256MB, 512MB, and 1TB - costing the same as a 3 series
BMW, a 5 series and a 7 series respectively.
Mark
2020-06-11 12:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan the Man
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU,
that was not nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was
also not fast enough.
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...
But this is talking about modern digital processing using general
purpose processors. They were not up to that, and certainly not in a
mobile packagable form...hell, I remember getting hold of raw digital
footage of the infamous Schumacher-Hill crash in 1994 (four cameras) in
1994, and my SGI Indy struggled to handle it at fairly low-res.

What did exist in that era was specialist silicon that could capture
video, but it was costly, bulky and produced lossless video (i.e.
absolutely massive for the resolution - albeit lower resolution than we
have now).

So, the capture could be done, but how quickly or easily it could be
converted into something for broadcast I don't know.
keithr0
2020-06-12 06:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Dan the Man
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU,
that was not nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was
also not fast enough.
A Cray-2 could've done it. A bit pricey, though...
But this is talking about modern digital processing using general
purpose processors. They were not up to that, and certainly not in a
mobile packagable form...hell, I remember getting hold of raw digital
footage of the infamous Schumacher-Hill crash in 1994 (four cameras) in
1994, and my SGI Indy struggled to handle it at fairly low-res.
What did exist in that era was specialist silicon that could capture
video, but it was costly, bulky and produced lossless video (i.e.
absolutely massive for the resolution - albeit lower resolution than we
have now).
So, the capture could be done, but how quickly or easily it could be
converted into something for broadcast I don't know.
Digital recording technology existed long before TV was transmitted
digitally.
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-13 05:12:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
But this is talking about modern digital processing using general
purpose processors. They were not up to that, and certainly not in a
mobile packagable form...hell, I remember getting hold of raw digital
footage of the infamous Schumacher-Hill crash in 1994 (four cameras) in
1994, and my SGI Indy struggled to handle it at fairly low-res.
What did exist in that era was specialist silicon that could capture
video, but it was costly, bulky and produced lossless video (i.e.
absolutely massive for the resolution - albeit lower resolution than we
have now).
So, the capture could be done, but how quickly or easily it could be
converted into something for broadcast I don't know.
That's what I think too, there must've been some ASIC's available at
that time to do this image processing.

Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-10 21:37:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
Well, I'm sure the digital format was nothing like Mpeg back then, but
how about simpler compression schemes like RLL, or even raw uncompressed
digital? Also, it wouldn't be likely that a general purpose processor
would be used to do the encoding, but possibly a specialized ASIC of
some kind? ASIC's would be too expensive for home electronics, but
possibly quite affordable by networks and stations?

Digital music was already a thing by then, as CD's already existed. Also
these were still SD videos back then, not yet HD, so storing SD videos
in digital might have been more feasible?

Yousuf Khan
keithr0
2020-06-12 05:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
Well, I'm sure the digital format was nothing like Mpeg back then, but
how about simpler compression schemes like RLL, or even raw uncompressed
digital? Also, it wouldn't be likely that a general purpose processor
would be used to do the encoding, but possibly a specialized ASIC of
some kind? ASIC's would be too expensive for home electronics, but
possibly quite affordable by networks and stations?
The first release of MPEG was in 1993.
Post by Yousuf Khan
Digital music was already a thing by then, as CD's already existed. Also
these were still SD videos back then, not yet HD, so storing SD videos
in digital might have been more feasible?
CDs came on the world market in early 1983, 1982 in Japan.
keithr0
2020-06-12 06:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
    Yousuf Khan
Sorry, just reread my reply, it doesn't seem clear which dates I'm
referring to. What I meant was digital broadcasting might have started
in 98, but did digital recording within the TV networks and stations
start earlier, perhaps in 85?
Yousuf Khan
I doubt you could have done DTV in 1985. There was Intel 386 CPU, that was not
nearly powerful enough. The Motorola and MIPS stuff was also not fast enough.
There was fast enough digital technology in the late 70s, it was just
done in hardware like gate arrays rather than in software.

This article shows the development of digital TV systems from the late
70s. Just as important was the use of solid state sensors in the cameras
from the late 70s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_video
Geoff May
2020-06-09 16:04:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.

I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.

Cheers

Geoff
D Munz
2020-06-09 16:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
Cheers
Geoff
This is from a very short Wikipedia article titled "Onboard Camera":

====

The first time a live onboard camera was used in a Formula One race was at the 1985 German Grand Prix, where one was attached to François Hesnault's Renault. Previously, cameras had only been mounted to F1 cars during testing, but since then, more and more cameras have been fitted. Since 1998, all Formula One cars have been fitted with at least three onboard cameras (usually more) and they form an integral part of the television coverage.

As with US onboard coverage, F1 used a helicopter as a local satellite to pick up the transmission from the cars and re-broadcast it to the truck / local production center. This was initially shifted to a ground-based analog system, with variable results, and more recently to a ground-based digital solution which is now the norm. Onboard cameras are now commonplace in other top motorsports including the World Rally Championship and MotoGP.

====

If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter, they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.

The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on to it.

I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring around circuits for data collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much good for this topic.

FWIW
DLM
~misfit~
2020-06-10 02:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by D Munz
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
     Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
Cheers
Geoff
====
The first time a live onboard camera was used in a Formula One race was at the 1985 German Grand Prix, where one was attached to François Hesnault's Renault. Previously, cameras had only been mounted to F1 cars during testing, but since then, more and more cameras have been fitted. Since 1998, all Formula One cars have been fitted with at least three onboard cameras (usually more) and they form an integral part of the television coverage.
As with US onboard coverage, F1 used a helicopter as a local satellite to pick up the transmission from the cars and re-broadcast it to the truck / local production center. This was initially shifted to a ground-based analog system, with variable results, and more recently to a ground-based digital solution which is now the norm. Onboard cameras are now commonplace in other top motorsports including the World Rally Championship and MotoGP.
====
If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter, they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.
The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on to it.
I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring around circuits for data collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much good for this topic.
I remember when they used a helicopter relay station for in-car stuff... Now where's the nurse with
my warm blanket?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
keithr0
2020-06-12 06:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by D Munz
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
      Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
Cheers
Geoff
====
The first time a live onboard camera was used in a Formula One race
was at the 1985 German Grand Prix, where one was attached to François
Hesnault's Renault. Previously, cameras had only been mounted to F1
cars during testing, but since then, more and more cameras have been
fitted. Since 1998, all Formula One cars have been fitted with at
least three onboard cameras (usually more) and they form an integral
part of the television coverage.
As with US onboard coverage, F1 used a helicopter as a local satellite
to pick up the transmission from the cars and re-broadcast it to the
truck / local production center. This was initially shifted to a
ground-based analog system, with variable results, and more recently
to a ground-based digital solution which is now the norm. Onboard
cameras are now commonplace in other top motorsports including the
World Rally Championship and MotoGP.
====
If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter,
they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.
The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did
Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good
clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume
he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on
to it.
I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole
Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring  around circuits for data
collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much
good for this topic.
I remember when they used a helicopter relay station for in-car stuff...
Now where's the nurse with my warm blanket?
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
D Munz
2020-06-12 16:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by keithr0
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
To add to that last point, both NASCAR and CART had cameras that could pan and were controlled in the production facilities. I remember a CART race where they actually panned the in-car camera to follow the lead car as a pass was made. That was pretty cool. (To beat the dead horse, I also thing the giant LED display on the intakes that Indy uses to show things like real-time position and pit time are something F1 should take a hard look at.)

FWIW
DLM
build
2020-06-13 01:58:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by D Munz
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
      Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
Cheers
Geoff
====
The first time a live onboard camera was used in a Formula One race
was at the 1985 German Grand Prix, where one was attached to François
Hesnault's Renault. Previously, cameras had only been mounted to F1
cars during testing, but since then, more and more cameras have been
fitted. Since 1998, all Formula One cars have been fitted with at
least three onboard cameras (usually more) and they form an integral
part of the television coverage.
As with US onboard coverage, F1 used a helicopter as a local satellite
to pick up the transmission from the cars and re-broadcast it to the
truck / local production center. This was initially shifted to a
ground-based analog system, with variable results, and more recently
to a ground-based digital solution which is now the norm. Onboard
cameras are now commonplace in other top motorsports including the
World Rally Championship and MotoGP.
====
If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter,
they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.
The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did
Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good
clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume
he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on
to it.
I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole
Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring  around circuits for data
collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much
good for this topic.
I remember when they used a helicopter relay station for in-car stuff...
Now where's the nurse with my warm blanket?
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
Interesting thread. Thanks to all contributors.

I was on the mountain when the first one was tested and at Amaroo in '85 too, (I'm in the footage), when this happened:
Search Richard Carter Racecam onboard or similar for 1st open wheel effort. They shrunk the system used in the shopping cars but it was still big.

In 1986 Sony did a demo in Adelaide of their HD Television (which they used to broadcast Sumo wrestling in Japan). They used a CRT but back then but it looked so sharp that it appeared 3D. I strongly suspect that was digital. The camera btw, was humungus. If you are interested the Sumo Wrestling HD broadcast might be worth a search.

The first racecam used in F1 was that same system as Richard but obviously shrunk dramatically. There is footage of it somewhere.

They introduced a lens cleaning system to the F1 system which I've seen. It is a very nice bit of very kissed engineering. Worth seeing, there is also footage of that but I'm too crook so you will have to search.

Someone mentioned Bernie. I met him in '96, I wish I'd met him sooner. In 5 min he gave some of the best advice I've learned. Note that F1 today is thanks to Bernie. It is worth learning the true history of F1 from when Bernie setup FOCA in the 70's to when he sold to Liberty. Just learn the bare facts first then read the various books, you will pick up on the tyre kickers easily. Often they use lying by omission to sell their agenda. In other words the facts they state are true but by leaving out one important fact changes the entire story. However if you lived through it or know all the facts and dates then the lie(s) becomes obvious. They also usually refer to rumours, enough said, ignore all of those. If the rumours had substance they'd have chased down the fact.

build
(sorry if that's dis-jointed, I'm pretty crook).
build
2020-06-13 05:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by build
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by D Munz
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by Geoff May
Post by Yousuf Khan
Been going through the back catalog of races from the 1980's onwards.
I'm at 1985 now, and I noticed a definite improvement of quality in
TV images. Previous seasons seemed like they were taken off of a VCR
set to slow-speed recording (probably not far off the mark). But in
85, there seemed to a much less artifacts, and higher resolution, at
least it was clearer. Also there seemed to be instant replays this
year, which didn't exist before this. Was some kind of digital
broadcast standard introduced in this year?
      Yousuf Khan
Digital TV started in late 1998.
Yes, the broadcasts of digital TV may have started then, but were TV
stations already using digital recording back then? This often happens,
where broadcaster gets some technology ahead of the general public.
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
Cheers
Geoff
====
The first time a live onboard camera was used in a Formula One race
was at the 1985 German Grand Prix, where one was attached to François
Hesnault's Renault. Previously, cameras had only been mounted to F1
cars during testing, but since then, more and more cameras have been
fitted. Since 1998, all Formula One cars have been fitted with at
least three onboard cameras (usually more) and they form an integral
part of the television coverage.
As with US onboard coverage, F1 used a helicopter as a local satellite
to pick up the transmission from the cars and re-broadcast it to the
truck / local production center. This was initially shifted to a
ground-based analog system, with variable results, and more recently
to a ground-based digital solution which is now the norm. Onboard
cameras are now commonplace in other top motorsports including the
World Rally Championship and MotoGP.
====
If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter,
they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.
The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did
Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good
clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume
he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on
to it.
I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole
Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring  around circuits for data
collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much
good for this topic.
I remember when they used a helicopter relay station for in-car stuff...
Now where's the nurse with my warm blanket?
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
Interesting thread. Thanks to all contributors.
Search Richard Carter Racecam onboard or similar for 1st open wheel effort. They shrunk the system used in the shopping cars but it was still big.
In 1986 Sony did a demo in Adelaide of their HD Television (which they used to broadcast Sumo wrestling in Japan). They used a CRT but back then but it looked so sharp that it appeared 3D. I strongly suspect that was digital. The camera btw, was humungus. If you are interested the Sumo Wrestling HD broadcast might be worth a search.
The first racecam used in F1 was that same system as Richard but obviously shrunk dramatically. There is footage of it somewhere.
They introduced a lens cleaning system to the F1 system which I've seen. It is a very nice bit of very kissed engineering. Worth seeing, there is also footage of that but I'm too crook so you will have to search.
Someone mentioned Bernie. I met him in '96, I wish I'd met him sooner. In 5 min he gave some of the best advice I've learned. Note that F1 today is thanks to Bernie. It is worth learning the true history of F1 from when Bernie setup FOCA in the 70's to when he sold to Liberty. Just learn the bare facts first then read the various books, you will pick up on the tyre kickers easily. Often they use lying by omission to sell their agenda. In other words the facts they state are true but by leaving out one important fact changes the entire story. However if you lived through it or know all the facts and dates then the lie(s) becomes obvious. They also usually refer to rumours, enough said, ignore all of those. If the rumours had substance they'd have chased down the fact.
build
(sorry if that's dis-jointed, I'm pretty crook).
BTW. Just thinking ... They can and did speak to drivers during F1 races. Search Brundle as I know he did back then when he was driving. I reckon there were one or two others. I'd be interested to hear the results if anyone finds those. I can understand why drivers (and teams) wouldn't want to participate though.

Also if you want to hear amusing driver banter during a race, search 'Dick Johnson in-car radio' or similar he was damned good. He once set a lap record while chatting to commentators. I can't imagine doing that, not during a hot lap anyway. I don't like any interruptions even team radio messages.

build
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-13 05:17:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by keithr0
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
Come to think of it, these sort of cameras and audio links existed in
NASCAR too sometime in the 80's. Due to the larger sizes of these cars,
they could get more features into these cameras, and mount them inside
the car, like a rear-seat passenger. They also interviewed the driver,
through a radio link, which I think was separate from the TV camera system.

Yousuf Khan
build
2020-06-13 05:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by keithr0
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers were
suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable cameras
in the following years. One thing that they did that F1 obviously
doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short interviews
with the drivers during the race.
Come to think of it, these sort of cameras and audio links existed in
NASCAR too sometime in the 80's. Due to the larger sizes of these cars,
they could get more features into these cameras, and mount them inside
the car, like a rear-seat passenger. They also interviewed the driver,
through a radio link, which I think was separate from the TV camera system.
Yousuf Khan
Yeah, RaceCam was used in the US. They used the Aussie RaceCam but that was replaced by a US co and ended up in a copyright or patent dispute. 'Auto Action' had a story on it at the time, I've forgotten the details.

build
keithr0
2020-06-13 12:01:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
Post by keithr0
AFAIK the first live in car video during a race was by Australian
Channel 7 during the 1979 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 at Bathurst. They didn't
publicise it before hand so the was a shock value when the viewers
were suddenly in a car on the grid. They added multiple and slewable
cameras in the following years. One thing that they did that F1
obviously doesn't was to have an audio link as well the conduct short
interviews with the drivers during the race.
Come to think of it, these sort of cameras and audio links existed in
NASCAR too sometime in the 80's. Due to the larger sizes of these cars,
they could get more features into these cameras, and mount them inside
the car, like a rear-seat passenger. They also interviewed the driver,
through a radio link, which I think was separate from the TV camera system.
The channel 7 Racecam people went over to the States to help set up the
original NASCAR system. As you say, it's a lot easier in sedan than an
open wheeler which would be why F1 was relatively late to the in car
video, they had to wait for the technology of minature cameras to be
developed.
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-10 22:20:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by D Munz
If they were using a digital feed from the in-car to the helicopter, they may have had more digital cameras around the circuit.
It was most likely an analog onboard camera, back then, as I remember
specifically that when these cameras first came on, that you would see a
very brief cut-off in the broadcast signal whenever the car went under a
bridge or something. Then many years later, that was no longer an issue
at all, which would likely have coincided with the introduction of
digital cameras.
Post by D Munz
The next step wold be storage and archiving of the data. When did Bernie get his claws on all things F1? That would probably be a good clue as to what was kept and how the data was managed. I would assume he recognized the value of the video product and would want to hold on to it.
I think 1985 was probably when Bernie started taking over everything. In
my other thread, "Monaco GP historical weirdnesses", I talked about how
inconsistent the podium procedures were in the past at Monaco. For
example, in 1981 when Gilles Villeneuve won, there were no 2nd or 3rd
place drivers on the podium with him, and in fact, the Monaco royal
family didn't even show up that year. Then in 1984, only the 1st and 2nd
place drivers (Prost & Senna) were on the podium together with the royal
family, but not the 3rd place guy (Stefan Bellof). It seemed that there
was no official procedure for the podium at Monaco back then.

But in 1985, it was more like what we see nowadays, all three podium
drivers are up there. The royal family greets them. You also even saw
that golden staircase for the first time, which serves as the Monaco
podium to this day. I'm guessing that Bernie was behind all of these
procedural and visual changes.
Post by D Munz
I remember a article (Autosport?) going into the details of the whole Bernie-Vision setup with the fiber ring around circuits for data collection. But that must have been something in the 90's. Not much good for this topic.
I'm sure it's peripherally relevant to this topic, it does show how
Bernie has changed F1 over the years.

Yousuf Khan
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-10 21:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff May
I would not have thought they would be using digital for 15 years before
making it more publicly available. I could be wrong in this instance.
Well, we've seen this as the case with video tapes, the broadcasters
were already using tapes for decades prior to tapes becoming available
for mass-consumption home use. Obviously not the same kind of video
tapes, between broadcasters and home, they had to make it much cheaper
and smaller by then.
Post by Geoff May
I did try seeing if I could find something because I do recall there was
changes in F1 coverage at the time but I couldn't find anything helpful.
There is something definitely different between 1984 & 1985. In 84 and
earlier, you would not have replays, if some action happened in some
other part of the track and the director missed it, then that's it, it's
missed forever. The only thing that would happen is that the announcer
would describe what action happened elsewhere and there would be no
replay of it.

Also, even though the broadcast resolution hadn't changed between 84 and
85, you could more easily discern things on the screen. Senna and
Mansell's helmets were easy to pick out on screen now. All of the ads on
the trackside, and most of the ads on the cars, easy to read. Car
numbers, easy to read. There used to be some races where the colours
were overwashed, making everything blurry, totally fixed by 1985.

Even the announcers (i.e. Walker and Hunt) seemed to have a much easier
time picking out which cars were which while the action was going on.
But obviously, they still made a few mistakes, it wouldn't be
quintessential Murray Walker without the spectacular mistakes. So it
seems even the announcers were benefiting from the technology
improvements while they were sitting in real-time in their broadcast booths.

Yousuf Khan
b***@topmail.co.nz
2020-06-11 09:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yousuf Khan
There is something definitely different between 1984 & 1985. In 84 and
earlier, you would not have replays, if some action happened in some
other part of the track and the director missed it, then that's it, it's
missed forever. The only thing that would happen is that the announcer
would describe what action happened elsewhere and there would be no
replay of it.
Betacam was introduced in 1982, that was an improvement over the older video
formats. Maybe motor racing took a few years to adopt it?
Yousuf Khan
2020-06-13 05:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Betacam was introduced in 1982, that was an improvement over the older video
formats. Maybe motor racing took a few years to adopt it?
That sounds very plausible, at least as far as image quality goes. But
what about instant replays? Did Betacam make the instant replaying easier?

Yousuf Khan
keithr0
2020-06-13 12:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Yousuf Khan
There is something definitely different between 1984 & 1985. In 84 and
earlier, you would not have replays, if some action happened in some
other part of the track and the director missed it, then that's it, it's
missed forever. The only thing that would happen is that the announcer
would describe what action happened elsewhere and there would be no
replay of it.
Betacam was introduced in 1982, that was an improvement over the older video
formats. Maybe motor racing took a few years to adopt it?
Betacam was/is a portable news gathering camera/recorder, the thing that
you see on news camera-mens shoulders at press conferences. I wouldn't
think it too relevant to F!. The 1980s versions were also analog.
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