Discussion:
This is Hamilton's best season
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l***@gmail.com
2018-10-08 11:56:19 UTC
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He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.

He's got it all.

On his way to breaking Schumacher's impressive records and also has Senna's charisma.
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 15:31:35 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
So let me see if I have this straight:

You think Hamilton's the GOAT...

...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's got it all.
On his way to breaking Schumacher's impressive records and also has Senna's charisma.
Edmund
2018-10-08 15:34:06 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Of course and what a coincidence they both drive -MORE OR LESS-
the same car :-)

Edmund
RzR
2018-10-08 16:59:24 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
who the f**k is Bottas, and where was he when Ferrari was the fastest
car, and Hamilton was still winning races...
Bigbird
2018-10-08 19:17:36 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.

You've let your love of Hamilton get in the way of your brain working.

:)
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 20:31:02 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
Post by Bigbird
You've let your love of Hamilton get in the way of your brain working.
What "love" are you talking about?

My whole point was that if Hamilton really was the "GOAT", then he'd be
handily beating anyone who wasn't also near that exalted level who was
also in the same machinery.

Hamilton has had 8 pole positions. But Bottas has had 2.

Hamilton has taken fastest lap just 2 times to Bottas's 5.

Simply put, for a supposed "greatest of all time" he's clearly not
dominating his team mate. No one thinks that Bottas is one of the best
ever, so how exactly is he able to keep up with Hamilton?

Compare this to Ayrton Senna in 1988:

He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was MUCH
faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by a tenth
or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.

Sorry, but unless one is willing to classify Bottas as at least being in
the top ten of Formula One drivers EVER, then based on his performance
against Bottas, how can Hamilton possibly be GOAT?
geoff
2018-10-08 21:58:18 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was MUCH
faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by a tenth
or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.
Sorry, but unless one is willing to classify Bottas as at least being in
the top ten of Formula One drivers EVER, then based on his performance
against Bottas, how can Hamilton possibly be GOAT?
Ah, that'll be why BOT is leading the F1 championship this year. Sochi
nothwithstanding.

Actually what is more surprising is that it is not *you* who is leading.
You would be, but they are biased and chose HAM instead.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 22:00:24 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was MUCH
faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by a tenth
or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.
Sorry, but unless one is willing to classify Bottas as at least being
in the top ten of Formula One drivers EVER, then based on his
performance against Bottas, how can Hamilton possibly be GOAT?
Ah, that'll be why BOT is leading the F1 championship this year. Sochi
nothwithstanding.
I'm not claiming that Bottas is better than Hamilton...

...just that if Hamilton is the GOAT, then Bottas must be pretty close
to number 2.
Post by geoff
Actually what is more surprising is that it is not *you* who is leading.
You would be, but they are biased and chose HAM instead.
LOL

Any time you want to get out in a road-racing car, you can.

Fact is: I DO race.

It burns up guys like you.
geoff
2018-10-08 22:54:34 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Fact is: I DO race.
It burns up guys like you.
In your mind maybe.

geoff
Brian W Lawrence
2018-10-09 13:21:43 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was MUCH
faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by a tenth
or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.
15 tenths - most people would say 1.5s

Senna outqualified Prost by more than 1.5s twice - out of 32 GPs in the
same team. At Monza & Suzuka 1989. At Monza Prost qualified 4th
suggesting a less than ideal session.

Lowering the bar, Senna was faster by over 1s 10 times. In only 4 of
those was Prost 2nd.

Prost outqualified Senna 4 times - in all 4 he was in pole position.

Prost wasn't much bothered about starting from pole - 33 in 199 starts,
~16%.

Senna achieved 65 poles from 161 starts - ~40%.
MT2
2018-10-09 21:34:53 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Alan Baker
He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was
MUCH faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by a
tenth or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.
15 tenths - most people would say 1.5s
Senna outqualified Prost by more than 1.5s twice - out of 32 GPs in the
same team. At Monza & Suzuka 1989. At Monza Prost qualified 4th
suggesting a less than ideal session.
Lowering the bar, Senna was faster by over 1s 10 times. In only 4 of
those was Prost 2nd.
Prost outqualified Senna 4 times - in all 4 he was in pole position.
Prost wasn't much bothered about starting from pole - 33 in 199 starts,
~16%.
Senna achieved 65 poles from 161 starts - ~40%.
1988 - Prost scored more points than Senna. During that period,
finishing the race was more important than pole and, as now, fastest
laps mean nothing. I believe Kimi has most fastest laps and look at the
number of race wins he's had.
Alan Baker
2018-10-10 00:04:17 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Alan Baker
He took 13 of 16 pole positions to his teammate's 2 (Prost: a hugely
respected driver. He was not only faster most of the time, he was
MUCH faster. Whereas Hamilton has mostly been faster than Bottas by
a tenth or two, Senna was out-qualifying Prost by as much as 15 TENTHS.
15 tenths - most people would say 1.5s
Senna outqualified Prost by more than 1.5s twice - out of 32 GPs in the
same team. At Monza & Suzuka 1989. At Monza Prost qualified 4th
suggesting a less than ideal session.
Lowering the bar, Senna was faster by over 1s 10 times. In only 4 of
those was Prost 2nd.
Prost outqualified Senna 4 times - in all 4 he was in pole position.
Prost wasn't much bothered about starting from pole - 33 in 199 starts,
~16%.
Senna achieved 65 poles from 161 starts - ~40%.
1988 - Prost scored more points than Senna.  During that period,
finishing the race was more important than pole and, as now, fastest
laps mean nothing.  I believe Kimi has most fastest laps and look at the
number of race wins he's had.
The importance of pole has always been the same. I don't know the person
to credit, but:

"The easiest pass you'll ever make is to walk by your competition to
your qualifying position ahead of him".
Out Cider
2018-10-10 10:00:17 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
The importance of pole has always been the same.
Yes:
Zero points.
--
OutCider
Alan Baker
2018-10-10 14:17:42 UTC
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Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
The importance of pole has always been the same.
Zero points.
And you had to snip everything I wrote to even hope to make that look
clever.
geoff
2018-10-10 21:56:07 UTC
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Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
The importance of pole has always been the same.
Zero points.
Now THAT'S an idea. How about 5 points for Pole ?

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-11 02:54:03 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
The importance of pole has always been the same.
Zero points.
Now THAT'S an idea. How about 5 points for Pole ?
geoff
As I said before "Out Cider" neatly snipped it to try and appear less
dim, the incentive in qualifying is always there, because it's a way to
get in front of an opponent in a sport where passing on the track has
become quite difficult.
Joaquín Topiso
2018-10-11 13:04:33 UTC
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Post by geoff
Now THAT'S an idea. How about 5 points for Pole ?
That would put Kubica on a solid 7th after 17 races. Not bad!
Mark Jackson
2018-10-11 13:24:31 UTC
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Post by Joaquín Topiso
Post by geoff
Now THAT'S an idea. How about 5 points for Pole ?
That would put Kubica on a solid 7th after 17 races. Not bad!
Third, actually, since only two other guys Finnish.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Fourteen years after it was founded, in Zuckerberg's dorm room,
Facebook has as many adherents as Christianity. - Evan Osnos
~misfit~
2018-10-11 22:47:06 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Joaquín Topiso
Post by geoff
Now THAT'S an idea. How about 5 points for Pole ?
That would put Kubica on a solid 7th after 17 races. Not bad!
Third, actually, since only two other guys Finnish.
<groan!>
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
DumbedDownUSA
2018-10-09 05:11:28 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
You think he is the only driver ever capable of doing so?
--
"We have helped to create a situation that has allowed us to end up
with Trump. The dumbing down of our society through the media, the lack
of education through poor schools, allows for a dumbed-down electorate,
and for him to be able to actually get 63 million votes."
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 15:42:08 UTC
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Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
You think he is the only driver ever capable of doing so?
No. Which is my POINT.

If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean that
he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?

Put it this way:

Right now, assuming they both get a chance to be equally familiar with
the car, who do you think would be faster: Hamilton or Verstappen?
Alan LeHun
2018-10-09 19:46:49 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean that
he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?
And here lies the flaw in your logic. It most certainly does not mean
that.
--
Alan LeHun

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 20:08:15 UTC
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Post by Alan LeHun
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean that
he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?
And here lies the flaw in your logic. It most certainly does not mean
that.
Really? It would mean that unless you consider all of the teammates he's
had as being in the absolutely top echelon of F1 drivers...

...which no one does.

Alonso out-qualified him with regularity in 2007.

Heikki Kovalainen out-qualified 4 times in 2008 and 5 times in 2009.
Does anyone even REMEMBER Kovalainen? :-)

Button outdid him in qualifying 5 times in 2010 and 6 times in 2011.

I could go on, but I think the point is made.

Is Hamilton one of the great drivers of today? Absolutely.

But if he's the "greatest of all time", then all of his teammates must
be the "second greatest of all time".

:-_)
geoff
2018-10-09 23:03:23 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
You think he is the only driver ever capable of doing so?
No. Which is my POINT.
If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean that
he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?
Right now, assuming they both get a chance to be equally familiar with
the car, who do you think would be faster: Hamilton or Verstappen?
Possibly VER, occasionally, on a dry track. Until he hit somebody.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 23:51:55 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
You think he is the only driver ever capable of doing so?
No. Which is my POINT.
If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean
that he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?
Right now, assuming they both get a chance to be equally familiar with
the car, who do you think would be faster: Hamilton or Verstappen?
Possibly VER, occasionally, on a dry track. Until he hit somebody.
Come on, man... ...be serious.

Hamilton had his share of bonehead moves when he was younger too.
DumbedDownUSA
2018-10-10 05:41:28 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by DumbedDownUSA
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bigbird
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Lol, what a fucking inane non-sequitur.
Bottas has been capable of beating Hamilton in the same car.
You think he is the only driver ever capable of doing so?
No. Which is my POINT.
If Hamilton were the greatest of all time, then wouldn't that mean
that he could almost NEVER be beaten in equal equipment?
NO.

That, again, is an inane non-sequitur.

Try being rational or logical.
--
"We have helped to create a situation that has allowed us to end up
with Trump. The dumbing down of our society through the media, the lack
of education through poor schools, allows for a dumbed-down electorate,
and for him to be able to actually get 63 million votes."
Out Cider
2018-10-09 12:41:00 UTC
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You mean the same Senna that was outqualified by a newcomer in 1993?

"[Häkkinen] was promoted to a Formula One race seat after the Italian
Grand Prix, when Andretti left Formula One. Häkkinen entered the
Portuguese Grand Prix where he out-qualified regular driver Ayrton
Senna."

So, does that mean that Häkkinen is better than the best? Does that make
Häkkinen the zeroeth best or minus first best?
--
OutCider
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 19:29:53 UTC
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Post by Out Cider
You mean the same Senna that was outqualified by a newcomer in 1993?
"[Häkkinen] was promoted to a Formula One race seat after the Italian
Grand Prix, when Andretti left Formula One. Häkkinen entered the
Portuguese Grand Prix where he out-qualified regular driver Ayrton
Senna."
So, does that mean that Häkkinen is better than the best? Does that make
Häkkinen the zeroeth best or minus first best?
Wow.

A driver...

...completely familiar with the car (as he was McLaren's test driver)...

...who himself went on to win 2 WDCs...

...out-qualified Senna...

...once...

...by less than 0.05s.

I'm not claiming that to be called the greatest of all time you can
never be bested by a teammate.

But one should take a look at how often that happens, and by how much.

Again: I think Hamilton is among the very best drivers currently racing...

...but how can he be the "greatest of all time" when there are serious
questions about whether he could even beat all of the other best drivers
currently out there in equal machinery?
Out Cider
2018-10-10 09:58:20 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Wow.
Wowie zowie.
Post by Alan Baker
A driver...
Yes, Häkkinen was a driver.
Post by Alan Baker
...completely familiar with the car (as he was McLaren's test driver)...
So he had an advantage over Senna? Wasn't Senna completely familiar
with the car?
Post by Alan Baker
...who himself went on to win 2 WDCs...
Yes?
Post by Alan Baker
...out-qualified Senna...
Yes.
Post by Alan Baker
...once...
On the first go - out of their three qualis in the same car. So 33% of
the time.
Post by Alan Baker
...by less than 0.05s.
Yes?
Post by Alan Baker
I'm not claiming that to be called the greatest of all time you can
never be bested by a teammate.
But one should take a look at how often that happens, and by how much.
33% of the time. By enough much.
Post by Alan Baker
Again: I think Hamilton is among the very best drivers currently racing...
...but how can he be the "greatest of all time" when there are serious
questions about whether he could even beat all of the other best
drivers currently out there in equal machinery?
I have seen nobody claim Hamilton is the "greatest of all time" yet.
The original message said he was on the road to becoming that. They are
two different things, which makes your message smell like a strawman
argument.

As I have read this group for a long time, as I see you don't usually
stop without getting the last word, and as I have already made my
point, I shall not continue on this thread.
--
OutCider
Alan Baker
2018-10-10 14:17:18 UTC
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Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
Wow.
Wowie zowie.
Post by Alan Baker
A driver...
Yes, Häkkinen was a driver.
Post by Alan Baker
...completely familiar with the car (as he was McLaren's test driver)...
So he had an advantage over Senna? Wasn't Senna completely familiar
with the car?
Post by Alan Baker
...who himself went on to win 2 WDCs...
Yes?
Post by Alan Baker
...out-qualified Senna...
Yes.
Post by Alan Baker
...once...
On the first go - out of their three qualis in the same car. So 33% of
the time.
That's my point: it wasn't his first go.
Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
...by less than 0.05s.
Yes?
Post by Alan Baker
I'm not claiming that to be called the greatest of all time you can
never be bested by a teammate.
But one should take a look at how often that happens, and by how much.
33% of the time. By enough much.
Too small a sample, don't you think?
Post by Out Cider
Post by Alan Baker
Again: I think Hamilton is among the very best drivers currently racing...
...but how can he be the "greatest of all time" when there are serious
questions about whether he could even beat all of the other best
drivers currently out there in equal machinery?
I have seen nobody claim Hamilton is the "greatest of all time" yet.
The original message said he was on the road to becoming that. They are
two different things, which makes your message smell like a strawman
argument.
That message was basically saying it was a done deal.
Post by Out Cider
As I have read this group for a long time, as I see you don't usually
stop without getting the last word, and as I have already made my
point, I shall not continue on this thread.
geoff
2018-10-08 21:53:59 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Yep. That' why BOT has won so many championships.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 21:55:31 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Yep. That' why BOT has won so many championships.
geoff
The point is that he's bloody near as fast as Hamilton in the same
machinery.

So if he's not the GOAT, he's close.

Do you think Bottas is close to being the greatest F1 driver of all
time? Do you?

:-)
geoff
2018-10-08 22:02:00 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Yep. That' why BOT has won so many championships.
geoff
The point is that he's bloody near as fast as Hamilton in the same
machinery.
So if he's not the GOAT, he's close.
When he can do that year after yearin a range of different cars, then yes.
Post by Alan Baker
Do you think Bottas is close to being the greatest F1 driver of all
time? Do you?
:-)
Naa. But very good.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 22:12:09 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by l***@gmail.com
He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.
You think Hamilton's the GOAT...
...so Bottas must be the second greatest driver of all time, right?
Yep. That' why BOT has won so many championships.
geoff
The point is that he's bloody near as fast as Hamilton in the same
machinery.
So if he's not the GOAT, he's close.
When he can do that year after yearin a range of different cars, then yes.
No.

You have it precisely wrong.

If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Do you think Bottas is close to being the greatest F1 driver of all
time? Do you?
:-)
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.

Your words.
geoff
2018-10-08 22:56:23 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Yes ....
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.
Your words.
If that's what it takes, then yes, but consistantly.

And nobody has been better in recent years. Even Rosberg despite his
WDC, which may not have happened if for HAM's bad 'luck' mechanically.

geoff
~misfit~
2018-10-08 23:05:35 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Yes ....
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.
Your words.
If that's what it takes, then yes, but consistantly.
And nobody has been better in recent years. Even Rosberg despite his
WDC, which may not have happened if for HAM's bad 'luck' mechanically.
... and Rosberg's psyops.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Alan Baker
2018-10-08 23:11:11 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Yes ....
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.
Your words.
If that's what it takes, then yes, but consistantly.
And nobody has been better in recent years. Even Rosberg despite his
WDC, which may not have happened if for HAM's bad 'luck'
mechanically.
I'm sorry, but "nobody has been better in recent years" can be said
about a lot of drivers who happen to have been in the right car at the
right time.
Post by geoff
geoff
larkim
2018-10-09 13:55:20 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Yes ....
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.
Your words.
If that's what it takes, then yes, but consistantly.
And nobody has been better in recent years. Even Rosberg despite his
WDC, which may not have happened if for HAM's bad 'luck'
mechanically.
I'm sorry, but "nobody has been better in recent years" can be said
about a lot of drivers who happen to have been in the right car at the
right time.
Post by geoff
geoff
Today's cars make it harder to find big gaps between teammates than in the
halcyon days gone by, so I don't think it makes any logical sense to
compare Ham vs Bot simply in terms of lap times in quali or races.

All F1 drivers today are fairly great. The question as to whether Hamilton
is exceptional is better looked at hypothetically with "who would be beating
Hamilton in the same car today" or "who would be faster than Bottas in the
Merc today".

There's a decent argument that Max, Fernando, Sebastian might do as well
as Hamilton in terms of outright pace. But Vettel has shown fragility,
Max is no different. Fred might be the one - by reputation his one lap pace
would be slower than Lewis', but his race pace might be equal or faster.

Possibly, possibly not.

I think they all would do better than Bottas, but I don't think there are
too many down the grid who would consistently be better than Bottas in that
car. Ricciardo certainly, and you can make an argument for some others, but
not with much certainty.
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 18:33:54 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Yes ....
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Naa. But very good.
Then Hamilton is just a little better than a "very good" driver.
Your words.
If that's what it takes, then yes, but consistantly.
And nobody has been better in recent years. Even Rosberg despite his
WDC, which may not have happened if for HAM's bad 'luck'
mechanically.
I'm sorry, but "nobody has been better in recent years" can be said
about a lot of drivers who happen to have been in the right car at the
right time.
Post by geoff
geoff
Today's cars make it harder to find big gaps between teammates than in the
halcyon days gone by, so I don't think it makes any logical sense to
compare Ham vs Bot simply in terms of lap times in quali or races.
Upon what other basis can you compare them?

The fact remains that in exactly the same machinery, Bottas—a good, but
by no one's estimation a great F1 pilot, is very nearly as quick as
Hamilton, race in, race out.
Post by larkim
All F1 drivers today are fairly great. The question as to whether Hamilton
is exceptional is better looked at hypothetically with "who would be beating
Hamilton in the same car today" or "who would be faster than Bottas in the
Merc today".
Verstappen

Alonso

Ricciardo
Post by larkim
There's a decent argument that Max, Fernando, Sebastian might do as well
as Hamilton in terms of outright pace. But Vettel has shown fragility,
Max is no different. Fred might be the one - by reputation his one lap pace
would be slower than Lewis', but his race pace might be equal or faster.
And if Hamilton were really the "greatest of all time", as some want to
anoint him, you would have suggested that any of them might be faster.
Post by larkim
Possibly, possibly not.
I think they all would do better than Bottas, but I don't think there are
too many down the grid who would consistently be better than Bottas in that
car. Ricciardo certainly, and you can make an argument for some others, but
not with much certainty.
And that makes my point very well.

Being consistently better than Bottas would put any driver pretty much
on a level with Hamilton, and therefore he cannot be the "greatest of
all time", can he?

Don't get me wrong: I think Hamilton is definitely in the elite circle
of F1 drivers currently racing.

But awarding him the "GOAT".... ...no.
geoff
2018-10-09 23:05:36 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Don't get me wrong: I think Hamilton is definitely in the elite circle
of F1 drivers currently racing.
But awarding him the "GOAT".... ...no.
Certainly not yet.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 23:48:08 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Don't get me wrong: I think Hamilton is definitely in the elite circle
of F1 drivers currently racing.
But awarding him the "GOAT".... ...no.
Certainly not yet.
geoff
And that's exactly what I've been saying.
geoff
2018-10-10 00:07:08 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Don't get me wrong: I think Hamilton is definitely in the elite
circle of F1 drivers currently racing.
But awarding him the "GOAT".... ...no.
Certainly not yet.
geoff
And that's exactly what I've been saying.
No, what we've been saying is that he has the attributes and has earned
the brownie-points to be capable of being the GOAT. I don't think
anybody really means that he already qualifies as that.

What you appear to be saying is that he is nothing special and pretty
much any of the other top echelon drivers at the mo' are equally likely
to have that ability.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-10-10 00:17:04 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Don't get me wrong: I think Hamilton is definitely in the elite
circle of F1 drivers currently racing.
But awarding him the "GOAT".... ...no.
Certainly not yet.
geoff
And that's exactly what I've been saying.
No, what we've been saying is that he has the attributes and has earned
the brownie-points to be capable of being the GOAT. I don't think
anybody really means that he already qualifies as that.
No. I entered this thread on a very specific post:

'He's on his way to becoming the GOAT.

He's got it all.'

That's not leaving a lot of room for anything else, now is it?
Post by geoff
What you appear to be saying is that he is nothing special and pretty
much any of the other top echelon drivers at the mo' are equally likely
to have that ability.
I have literally never said anything even remotely like that.

What I have said is that for someone who is "on his way to becoming the
GOAT", he gets bested in equal equipment... ...a lot.
Philip
2018-10-09 22:24:49 UTC
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Post by larkim
There's a decent argument that Max, Fernando, Sebastian might do as well
as Hamilton in terms of outright pace. But Vettel has shown fragility,
Max is no different.
It's a lot easier to "show fragility" when you're having to race with other
cars for position, rather than driving the fastest car in clean air.

If Fred/Seb/others had got the seat at Mercedes and Hamilton had got their
car, then they would have been the one who racked up the multiple world
championships and Hamilton would have been seen as an also-ran. He's a
competent driver who happened to make the lucky/clever move into the right
car at the right time.
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 23:53:53 UTC
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Post by Philip
Post by larkim
There's a decent argument that Max, Fernando, Sebastian might do as well
as Hamilton in terms of outright pace. But Vettel has shown fragility,
Max is no different.
It's a lot easier to "show fragility" when you're having to race with other
cars for position, rather than driving the fastest car in clean air.
If Fred/Seb/others had got the seat at Mercedes and Hamilton had got their
car, then they would have been the one who racked up the multiple world
championships and Hamilton would have been seen as an also-ran. He's a
competent driver who happened to make the lucky/clever move into the right
car at the right time.
I think that there is a lot of evidence that he's well beyond merely
competent. That qualifying lap in Singapore was masterful.

As I've said: Hamilton definitely belongs among the top drivers in F1
currently (IMHO).
Bruce Hoult
2018-10-09 22:45:11 UTC
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Post by larkim
There's a decent argument that Max, Fernando, Sebastian might do as well
as Hamilton in terms of outright pace. But Vettel has shown fragility,
Max is no different.
2007. Two races to go. HAM on 107 points. ALO on 95 points. RAI on 90 points.

Nine points from the last two races would secure the WDC for HAM, even if ALO won both of them. A 4th and a 5th, say. Or a 3rd and a 6th. Or a 2nd and an 8th. Or a win.

The result?

A DNF in China, running off the pit entry into a gravel trap while in 2nd, having just been overtaken by RAI. With RAI winning the race and ALO 3rd, 2nd would have given HAM the championship with a race to spare.

And then a *7th* in Brazil, when 5th would have been enough for the championship, given that RAI won again with ALO 3rd.

Hamilton was mighty fragile when he was younger.
bra
2018-10-09 15:43:38 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Here's the problem with rating drivers: every driver who has the best car is assumed to be mediocre, eg. "He's not the best, he just has the best car."

Must Hamilton drive a second-hand McLaren and win races, before people acknowledge that he's a good driver?
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 15:47:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bra
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Here's the problem with rating drivers: every driver who has the best car is assumed to be mediocre, eg. "He's not the best, he just has the best car."
Must Hamilton drive a second-hand McLaren and win races, before people acknowledge that he's a good driver?
I don't dismiss that fact.

Hamilton is more than just a good driver, he's one of the great drivers
in F1 right now.

I'm just tired of people trying to declare him the greatest of all time.
~misfit~
2018-10-09 23:04:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bra
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Here's the problem with rating drivers: every driver who has the best
car is assumed to be mediocre, eg. "He's not the best, he just has
the best car."
Must Hamilton drive a second-hand McLaren and win races, before
people acknowledge that he's a good driver?
Hasn't he already done that?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Alan Baker
2018-10-09 23:50:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by bra
Post by Alan Baker
If Hamilton can consistently outdo first class drivers in the same
machinery, then perhaps he can be numbered AMONG the greatest of all time.
Here's the problem with rating drivers: every driver who has the best
car is assumed to be mediocre, eg. "He's not the best, he just has
the best car."
Must Hamilton drive a second-hand McLaren and win races, before
people acknowledge that he's a good driver?
Hasn't he already done that?
Good one! ;-)
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