Discussion:
Red Bull DAS Protest Failed
(too old to reply)
CS
2020-07-04 10:01:47 UTC
Permalink
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
Geoff May
2020-07-04 10:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
The main reason for the protest was to find out more detail about what
DAS does and how it works. Red Bull were not expecting to win.

Cheers

Geoff
~misfit~
2020-07-05 04:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and are moveable - they rotate
- and should also be illegal!!
The main reason for the protest was to find out more detail about what DAS does and how it works.
Red Bull were not expecting to win.
The main reason for the protest could be that Red Bull used some of the lockdown time to nut out a
system of their own but didn't want to fit it and then have it banned after a protest - so they
protested it themselves first. This reinforces the legality of the system (for the rest of this
season at least).

Very smart thinking if that's the case.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
t***@gmail.com
2020-07-05 16:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Very smart thinking if that's the case.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
Ya you know all about smart.
Got your pirated race yet?
You fucking loser thief.
Sir Tim
2020-07-04 12:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and are
moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
‘Red Bull lodged a protest regarding an alleged breach of the Technical
Regulations, specifically article 3.8 which refers to aerodynamic influence
and article 10.2.3, which states “no adjustment may be made to any
suspension system while the car is in motion

However, after a stewards hearing attended by members of both teams (in
person or via video), as well as Nikolas Tombazis of the FIA Technical
Department, it was determined that DAS is part of the Mercedes W11’s
steering system, “albeit not a conventional one”.

As a result, the stewards decided that DAS could not be in breach of any
suspension‐related regulations.’
--
Sir Tim
Brian Lawrence
2020-07-04 14:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.

He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
b***@topmail.co.nz
2020-07-05 03:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Lawrence
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
So they deliberately skew the wheel alignment to scrub the tyres?
Alan Baker
2020-07-05 04:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Brian Lawrence
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
So they deliberately skew the wheel alignment to scrub the tyres?
I doubt it.

But there is undoubtedly an adjustable range of toe you can achieve with
Mercedes' system.

So it MIGHT make sense to do something for qualifying that you wouldn't
do in the race.

Setting the amount of toe-out is always a compromise between what you
want for the slowest corners (lots) and what you want for higher speed
corners (less) and the straights (none).
Sir Tim
2020-07-05 06:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Lawrence
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
Surely there must be more to it than that. It will be interesting to see if
they use it during the race.
--
Sir Tim
Alan Baker
2020-07-05 07:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Brian Lawrence
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
Surely there must be more to it than that. It will be interesting to see if
they use it during the race.
There is no doubt that there's more to it.

The normal setup for an F1 car is with the front wheels toed out just
slightly (for those who don't know, that means that each tire points a
little outward from the centre line of the car). This is a compromise
setting where it gains you speed in the corners by creating some
additional front grip (particularly in slow corners) but it costs you a
small amount of friction on the straights which both slows the car
slightly and wears the front tires more quickly because the the tires
run at a slight angle to straight ahead.

Mercedes system will definitely let the car go just a little faster on
the straight and probably means that they can use more toe-out to
enhance cornering than other teams can because of what it would cost
them in straight line speed.

So it allows a car which is more optimized for cornering AND more
optimized for straight line running.

The ability to deliberately run the tires toed out when you want to
build heat in them is just a nice bonus.
Sir Tim
2020-07-05 11:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Brian Lawrence
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
Surely there must be more to it than that. It will be interesting to see if
they use it during the race.
There is no doubt that there's more to it.
The normal setup for an F1 car is with the front wheels toed out just
slightly (for those who don't know, that means that each tire points a
little outward from the centre line of the car). This is a compromise
setting where it gains you speed in the corners by creating some
additional front grip (particularly in slow corners) but it costs you a
small amount of friction on the straights which both slows the car
slightly and wears the front tires more quickly because the the tires
run at a slight angle to straight ahead.
Mercedes system will definitely let the car go just a little faster on
the straight and probably means that they can use more toe-out to
enhance cornering than other teams can because of what it would cost
them in straight line speed.
So it allows a car which is more optimized for cornering AND more
optimized for straight line running.
The ability to deliberately run the tires toed out when you want to
build heat in them is just a nice bonus.
Yes. I have assumed from the beginning that the ability to adjust the toe
at speed would confer a *small* increase in straight-line speed and a
*small* increase in grip through the corners. Added up over the course of a
full race, however, these small advantages would become very significant,
to say nothing of the possible effect on tyre degradation.

DAS would seem to be a very complicated and expensive exercise if its
purpose were merely to get more heat into the front tyres prior to a hot
lap.
--
Sir Tim
Darryl Johnson
2020-07-05 15:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Brian Lawrence
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
According to Karun Chandok Mercedes were only using DAS during out laps.
He speculates that it's used to warm up the front tyres which was a
problem with the 2019 car. So seemingly it's not used to gain any lap
time except indirectly by bringing the fronts up to temperature before
a hot lap.
Surely there must be more to it than that. It will be interesting to see if
they use it during the race.
There is no doubt that there's more to it.
The normal setup for an F1 car is with the front wheels toed out just
slightly (for those who don't know, that means that each tire points a
little outward from the centre line of the car). This is a compromise
setting where it gains you speed in the corners by creating some
additional front grip (particularly in slow corners) but it costs you a
small amount of friction on the straights which both slows the car
slightly and wears the front tires more quickly because the the tires
run at a slight angle to straight ahead.
Mercedes system will definitely let the car go just a little faster on
the straight and probably means that they can use more toe-out to
enhance cornering than other teams can because of what it would cost
them in straight line speed.
So it allows a car which is more optimized for cornering AND more
optimized for straight line running.
The ability to deliberately run the tires toed out when you want to
build heat in them is just a nice bonus.
Yes. I have assumed from the beginning that the ability to adjust the toe
at speed would confer a *small* increase in straight-line speed and a
*small* increase in grip through the corners. Added up over the course of a
full race, however, these small advantages would become very significant,
to say nothing of the possible effect on tyre degradation.
DAS would seem to be a very complicated and expensive exercise if its
purpose were merely to get more heat into the front tyres prior to a hot
lap.
Interesting the the Sky commentators were suggesting that the DAS
would only be used during safety car period to warm the front tires
without all the weaving about that -- apparently -- stresses the rears.

Whatever the purpose, it seems that almost everyone agrees that there
must be *some* benefit to make all the added weight worth while.
b***@topmail.co.nz
2020-07-07 07:52:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darryl Johnson
Interesting the the Sky commentators were suggesting that the DAS
would only be used during safety car period to warm the front tires
without all the weaving about that -- apparently -- stresses the rears.
Whatever the purpose, it seems that almost everyone agrees that there
must be *some* benefit to make all the added weight worth while.
I would think limiting it to outlap/safety car is plausible. The "dual axis"
seems rather dodgy to use in a race, when you do say 4g under braking.
Surely then the driver is going to inadvertantly push the steering wheel forward.
Alan Baker
2020-07-08 03:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@topmail.co.nz
Post by Darryl Johnson
Interesting the the Sky commentators were suggesting that the DAS
would only be used during safety car period to warm the front tires
without all the weaving about that -- apparently -- stresses the rears.
Whatever the purpose, it seems that almost everyone agrees that there
must be *some* benefit to make all the added weight worth while.
I would think limiting it to outlap/safety car is plausible. The "dual axis"
seems rather dodgy to use in a race, when you do say 4g under braking.
Surely then the driver is going to inadvertantly push the steering wheel forward.
Ummm... ...the system is designed so that forward is where you want it
for cornering and backward is where you want it for straight line speed.
Alister
2020-07-04 19:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
Aero? I dont think so
Suspension change probably
& the rules that that this cannot be changed EXCEPT by the movement of
the steering wheel.
as I understand it the Merc system is controlled bt moving the steering
wheel forwards or backwards
--
The debate rages on: Is PL/I Bachtrian or Dromedary?
Alan Baker
2020-07-04 22:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alister
Post by CS
RB trying to say DAS was part of the suspension system, hence a moveable
part, hence illegal.
If they had won, tyre carcasses are part of the suspension system and
are moveable - they rotate - and should also be illegal!!
Aero? I dont think so
Suspension change probably
& the rules that that this cannot be changed EXCEPT by the movement of
the steering wheel.
as I understand it the Merc system is controlled bt moving the steering
wheel forwards or backwards
Correct.

The rules state that the wheels can only be steered by the movement of
the steering wheel. They say nothing about what sorts of movement of the
steering wheel are permitted.
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