Discussion:
Torro Rosso Out Qualifying Mclaren
(too old to reply)
CS
2018-04-07 19:48:47 UTC
Permalink
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Bobster
2018-04-07 21:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Indeed. Boullier said that they'd struggled at Sakhir last year and now they've struggled again and they need to look into it and understand why that is.

I think there's various things that have come together here.
1) New ICEs from Honda. So there's been some development gone on and it's worked.
2) The new aero bits on the STR have worked very well.
3) McLaren have a problem at Sakhir.

But still, there's some irony here.
build
2018-04-07 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bobster
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Indeed. Boullier said that they'd struggled at Sakhir last year and now they've struggled again and they need to look into it and understand why that is.
I think there's various things that have come together here.
1) New ICEs from Honda. So there's been some development gone on and it's worked.
2) The new aero bits on the STR have worked very well.
3) McLaren have a problem at Sakhir.
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
Post by Bobster
But still, there's some irony here.
~misfit~
2018-04-08 00:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Indeed. Boullier said that they'd struggled at Sakhir last year and
now they've struggled again and they need to look into it and
understand why that is.
I think there's various things that have come together here.
1) New ICEs from Honda. So there's been some development gone on and
it's worked. 2) The new aero bits on the STR have worked very well.
3) McLaren have a problem at Sakhir.
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
So both Toro Rosso drivers outdrove Alonso and Vandoorne by a decent margin
(despite one of them hitting a bird and damaging his front wing during
qually)? After qualifying ~1 second a lap slower than them last race?

I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than that...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 02:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than that...
You psychotic asshole.
You were shitting on build last week.
You fucking sick cunt.
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-08 02:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
I know
You don't know fuck all.
geoff
2018-04-08 07:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by ~misfit~
I know
You don't know fuck all.
That means you think he knows lots then. Ignoramus .

geoff
~misfit~
2018-04-08 07:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Indeed. Boullier said that they'd struggled at Sakhir last year and
now they've struggled again and they need to look into it and
understand why that is.
I think there's various things that have come together here.
1) New ICEs from Honda. So there's been some development gone on and
it's worked. 2) The new aero bits on the STR have worked very well.
3) McLaren have a problem at Sakhir.
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
So both Toro Rosso drivers outdrove Alonso and Vandoorne by a decent
margin (despite one of them hitting a bird and damaging his front
wing during qually)? After qualifying ~1 second a lap slower than
them last race?
I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than that...
I see that Ferrari have been been keeping Vettel happy by turning the wick
up in Bahrain, running thier own 'party mode' quite a bit. I do hope their
reliability doesn't suffer - either here or over the season.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
build
2018-04-08 14:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by build
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than that...
--
Shaun.
What the ...
How the heck did you come to that conclusion ?
~misfit~
2018-04-09 04:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by build
Post by ~misfit~
Post by build
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than
that... --
Shaun.
What the ...
How the heck did you come to that conclusion ?
By remembering. You sent me an email part-way into his GP2 year telling me
that he's the 'bloke to watch', that he was going places (and I replied
saying that having Red Bull backing helps in that regard).
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2018-04-09 04:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Post by build
Post by ~misfit~
Post by build
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
I know you're a Gasly fan but I think that there's more to it than
that... --
Shaun.
What the ...
How the heck did you come to that conclusion ?
By remembering. You sent me an email part-way into his GP2 year
telling me that he's the 'bloke to watch', that he was going places
(and I replied saying that having Red Bull backing helps in that
regard).
Just checked my emails from 2016 - a few hours after you told me he was a
bloke to watch you sent me another email a few minutes after Gasly won the
2016 Silverstone feature race that was titled "GP2 WINNER!".

So on the weight of that I figured you were a Gasly fan.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-09 22:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ~misfit~
Just checked my emails from 2016
Can't say you don't have a life.
Bobster
2018-04-08 03:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Indeed. Boullier said that they'd struggled at Sakhir last year and now they've struggled again and they need to look into it and understand why that is.
I think there's various things that have come together here.
1) New ICEs from Honda. So there's been some development gone on and it's worked.
2) The new aero bits on the STR have worked very well.
3) McLaren have a problem at Sakhir.
4). Maybe the driver drove the car and engine with exceptional skill?
Indeed. What we don't know yet was which race is unrepresentative - Australia or Bahrain.

It is clear, though, that the engine in that car is not a total dud.
Post by build
Post by Bobster
But still, there's some irony here.
Edmund
2018-04-08 10:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably
a better chassis then McLaren.

Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.

Edmund
larkim
2018-04-10 10:25:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably
a better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a sample
of two races is not likely to be representative, there are points in the
bag at this point that weren't there last year.

Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.

It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse than the
STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long way to go for
everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year development.
~misfit~
2018-04-10 11:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably
a better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a
sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there are
points in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as
them, but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse
than the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long
way to go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year
development.
In testing I was very impressed wth the aero package on the STR (thanks to
Honda $$$ investment in the team, previously STR have been quite 'lean') and
said so in my testing 'report'. I was suprised they didn't do a bit better
at Melbourne as the car /looked/ good. Apparently, as they're fairly new to
cutting edge aero there were a few things that they hadn't got quite right
but running a 'rake' in testing showed how to improve things.

Based on testing they added some aero bits and tweaked others, adding a
vortex here and moving another there to tie everything together and bought
the updates to Bahrain. They expected to gain a few tenths but were very
pleasantly surprised when they gained closer to a second. I hope Hartley's
luck changes as, based on past form he should be up there with Gasly. I'm
not sure that the chassis is better than the Mclaren though, it remains to
be seen...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Edmund
2018-04-10 11:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid another
year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably a
better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder Boulier
was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a
sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there are points
in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse than
the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long way to
go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year development.
Early days indeed and 3rd in the constructors is most definitely not
representing the strength of McLaren.
So far McLaren is very disappointing in both lap times and even more
so in top speed. Quite some time ago Marco already warned McLaren going
the wrong way with (too) much downforce with the somewhat underpowered
Renault PU.
Boulier is not showing much optimism either, so lots and lots of work
or the McLaren guys.
Personally I expected McLAren to be significant slower then Red Bull but
not as much as they are now.

Edmund
larkim
2018-04-10 14:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid another
year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably a
better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder Boulier
was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a
sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there are points
in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse than
the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long way to
go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year development.
Early days indeed and 3rd in the constructors is most definitely not
representing the strength of McLaren.
So far McLaren is very disappointing in both lap times and even more
so in top speed. Quite some time ago Marco already warned McLaren going
the wrong way with (too) much downforce with the somewhat underpowered
Renault PU.
Boulier is not showing much optimism either, so lots and lots of work
or the McLaren guys.
Personally I expected McLAren to be significant slower then Red Bull but
not as much as they are now.
Edmund
Absolute top speed isn't the be-all and end-all, if you can gain 0.5s in the
corners and lose 0.5s on the straight your lap time will still be OK.

Though you may struggle to pass, of course, and be vulnerable to being
overtaken.

But I agree, I was expecting the McLaren performance to be closer to the
RBR given the same engine package is available to both, and broadly
speaking they both have high end aero and chassis skills available (and
resources).

I clearly don't expect them to finish 3rd in the constructors by the end of
the year (despite my ludicrous predictions in the newsgroup competition!),
but they still should be targeting 4th or 5th at worst.

If STR, Haas and Renault get things together and finish above McLaren
without McLaren suffering disproportionate levels of reliability issues or
"bad luck" on track (e.g. on the receiving end of crashes, poor luck with
safety cars, etc etc) then I'd reckon this season would rank above the last
two or three in terms of disappointment for them.

As I said, they've got points on the board, had reliable race cars, and I'd
say their points scoring is probably towards the top end of what they
might have expected at this early stage in the season. But success breeds
success and if they're not heading to China with a negative outlook they're
definitely in a better place than last year, irrespective of what STR are
doing with the Honda package.
Edmund
2018-04-11 09:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably a
better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a
sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there are
points in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse
than the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long
way to go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year
development.
Early days indeed and 3rd in the constructors is most definitely not
representing the strength of McLaren.
So far McLaren is very disappointing in both lap times and even more so
in top speed. Quite some time ago Marco already warned McLaren going
the wrong way with (too) much downforce with the somewhat underpowered
Renault PU.
Boulier is not showing much optimism either, so lots and lots of work
or the McLaren guys.
Personally I expected McLAren to be significant slower then Red Bull
but not as much as they are now.
Edmund
Absolute top speed isn't the be-all and end-all, if you can gain 0.5s in
the corners and lose 0.5s on the straight your lap time will still be
OK.
Though you may struggle to pass, of course, and be vulnerable to being
overtaken.
But I agree, I was expecting the McLaren performance to be closer to the
RBR given the same engine package is available to both, and broadly
speaking they both have high end aero and chassis skills available (and
resources).
I think everybody including McLaren expected that.
Maybe there are more reasons for McLaren to have a low top speed other
then the aero.
Just by looking to the car you can clearly see a big difference between
the McLaren and -I think - ALL other teams. I always wondered why they
build it that way and if it is better, something I seriously doubt.
Post by larkim
I clearly don't expect them to finish 3rd in the constructors by the end
of the year (despite my ludicrous predictions in the newsgroup
competition!), but they still should be targeting 4th or 5th at worst.
If STR, Haas and Renault get things together and finish above McLaren
without McLaren suffering disproportionate levels of reliability issues
or "bad luck" on track (e.g. on the receiving end of crashes, poor luck
with safety cars, etc etc) then I'd reckon this season would rank above
the last two or three in terms of disappointment for them.
Well I see what you mean but in absolute terms, more disappointing then
the last 3 years is hardly possible. On the other side all those wasted
years are accumulating and they really don't need another year like that.
They all need a Prozac then :-)
Post by larkim
As I said, they've got points on the board, had reliable race cars, and
I'd say their points scoring is probably towards the top end of what
they might have expected at this early stage in the season. But success
breeds success and if they're not heading to China with a negative
outlook they're definitely in a better place than last year,
irrespective of what STR are doing with the Honda package.
There is no doubt they are in a much better position then the last
3 years, that is what happens when you have hit rock bottom.


Edmund
larkim
2018-04-16 14:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably a
better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While a
sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there are
points in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not showing
the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse
than the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a long
way to go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at in year
development.
Early days indeed and 3rd in the constructors is most definitely not
representing the strength of McLaren.
So far McLaren is very disappointing in both lap times and even more so
in top speed. Quite some time ago Marco already warned McLaren going
the wrong way with (too) much downforce with the somewhat underpowered
Renault PU.
Boulier is not showing much optimism either, so lots and lots of work
or the McLaren guys.
Personally I expected McLAren to be significant slower then Red Bull
but not as much as they are now.
Edmund
Absolute top speed isn't the be-all and end-all, if you can gain 0.5s in
the corners and lose 0.5s on the straight your lap time will still be
OK.
Though you may struggle to pass, of course, and be vulnerable to being
overtaken.
But I agree, I was expecting the McLaren performance to be closer to the
RBR given the same engine package is available to both, and broadly
speaking they both have high end aero and chassis skills available (and
resources).
I think everybody including McLaren expected that.
Maybe there are more reasons for McLaren to have a low top speed other
then the aero.
Just by looking to the car you can clearly see a big difference between
the McLaren and -I think - ALL other teams. I always wondered why they
build it that way and if it is better, something I seriously doubt.
Post by larkim
I clearly don't expect them to finish 3rd in the constructors by the end
of the year (despite my ludicrous predictions in the newsgroup
competition!), but they still should be targeting 4th or 5th at worst.
If STR, Haas and Renault get things together and finish above McLaren
without McLaren suffering disproportionate levels of reliability issues
or "bad luck" on track (e.g. on the receiving end of crashes, poor luck
with safety cars, etc etc) then I'd reckon this season would rank above
the last two or three in terms of disappointment for them.
Well I see what you mean but in absolute terms, more disappointing then
the last 3 years is hardly possible. On the other side all those wasted
years are accumulating and they really don't need another year like that.
They all need a Prozac then :-)
Post by larkim
As I said, they've got points on the board, had reliable race cars, and
I'd say their points scoring is probably towards the top end of what
they might have expected at this early stage in the season. But success
breeds success and if they're not heading to China with a negative
outlook they're definitely in a better place than last year,
irrespective of what STR are doing with the Honda package.
There is no doubt they are in a much better position then the last
3 years, that is what happens when you have hit rock bottom.
Edmund
Backing up your points here Edmund - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/43778011

Disappointing to say the least!!
~misfit~
2018-04-17 00:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by CS
The Honda chickens are coming home to roost. So if it ain't the
engine, it must be the car design!
Most likely it is both.
No doubt Honda has doubled the billion budget in order to avoid
another year being ridiculed by the world.
In addition to that, like I said before Toro Rosso has probably a
better chassis then McLaren.
Look at the difference between Red Bull and McLaren, no wonder
Boulier was sweating like hell.
Edmund
Early days, but McLaren are still 3rd in the constructors. While
a sample of two races is not likely to be representative, there
are points in the bag at this point that weren't there last year.
Two races, 100% points finishing so far. I know they are not
showing the levels of pace or performance of teams with the same
engine as them,
but Sunday performances have not been too bad so far.
It would be a surprise if the McLaren chassis was noticeable worse
than the STR one (though of course not impossible), but still a
long way to go for everyone and McLaren *ought* to be strong at
in year development.
Early days indeed and 3rd in the constructors is most definitely
not representing the strength of McLaren.
So far McLaren is very disappointing in both lap times and even
more so in top speed. Quite some time ago Marco already warned
McLaren going the wrong way with (too) much downforce with the
somewhat underpowered Renault PU.
Boulier is not showing much optimism either, so lots and lots of
work or the McLaren guys.
Personally I expected McLAren to be significant slower then Red
Bull but not as much as they are now.
Edmund
Absolute top speed isn't the be-all and end-all, if you can gain
0.5s in the corners and lose 0.5s on the straight your lap time
will still be OK.
Though you may struggle to pass, of course, and be vulnerable to
being overtaken.
But I agree, I was expecting the McLaren performance to be closer
to the RBR given the same engine package is available to both, and
broadly speaking they both have high end aero and chassis skills
available (and resources).
I think everybody including McLaren expected that.
Maybe there are more reasons for McLaren to have a low top speed
other then the aero.
Just by looking to the car you can clearly see a big difference
between the McLaren and -I think - ALL other teams. I always
wondered why they build it that way and if it is better, something I
seriously doubt.
Post by larkim
I clearly don't expect them to finish 3rd in the constructors by
the end of the year (despite my ludicrous predictions in the
newsgroup competition!), but they still should be targeting 4th or
5th at worst.
If STR, Haas and Renault get things together and finish above
McLaren without McLaren suffering disproportionate levels of
reliability issues or "bad luck" on track (e.g. on the receiving
end of crashes, poor luck with safety cars, etc etc) then I'd
reckon this season would rank above the last two or three in terms
of disappointment for them.
Well I see what you mean but in absolute terms, more disappointing
then the last 3 years is hardly possible. On the other side all
those wasted years are accumulating and they really don't need
another year like that. They all need a Prozac then :-)
Post by larkim
As I said, they've got points on the board, had reliable race cars,
and I'd say their points scoring is probably towards the top end of
what they might have expected at this early stage in the season.
But success breeds success and if they're not heading to China with
a negative outlook they're definitely in a better place than last
year, irrespective of what STR are doing with the Honda package.
There is no doubt they are in a much better position then the last
3 years, that is what happens when you have hit rock bottom.
Edmund
Backing up your points here Edmund -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/43778011
Disappointing to say the least!!
Yep. Expect to see a lot of changes around the barge-board area for Spain.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Loading...