Discussion:
HAM's 2017 F1 Lap Record at Spa Falls to Porsche LMP1 Tribute
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News
2018-04-12 19:37:26 UTC
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
Bigbird
2018-04-12 19:51:30 UTC
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/

"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
John
2018-04-12 20:03:45 UTC
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
Not at all, it just shows how pathetic the people making rules these days are.
Bigbird
2018-04-12 20:12:46 UTC
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Post by John
Post by Bigbird
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
Post by John
Post by Bigbird
"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
Not at all, it just shows how pathetic the people making rules these days are.
How exactly? You don't like open wheel racing? or you think permitting
faster designs would make racing more interesting?
John
2018-04-13 20:15:53 UTC
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less rules + more innovation = better racing

Or stop pretending, and just go to a full one design system.
Bobster
2018-04-13 20:20:28 UTC
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Post by John
less rules + more innovation = better racing
Not really. Can Am being a good example. Porsche slung money at it and their car was a huge step forwards from what had gone before. It nearly killed Can Am because nobody else had the resources to enter the arms race.
Post by John
Or stop pretending, and just go to a full one design system.
DumbedDownUSA
2018-04-14 09:06:55 UTC
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Post by John
less rules + more innovation = better racing
Fanciful... but not an answer.

You don't want open wheel racing?
Post by John
Or stop pretending, and just go to a full one design system.
--
Trump averages six falsehoods a day; how you doin'?
Moderate! an unwitting ignorant cowardly racist, latrine cleaning
mawine and proud of it.
Dense, if you are reading this you lied.
bra
2018-04-14 15:25:28 UTC
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On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 2:06:57 AM UTC-7, DumbedDownUSA wrote:


Restrictive rules are what make racing and force innovation.

Throughout 100 years of motor sport, it's apparent that the so-called purpose of racing has NEVER been simply to win regardless. No team has ever, nor ever will, accept free-for-all unrestricted engineering.

(If to go faster and win had been the only purpose, they'd have been driving rockets by now.)

If you were to ask Ferrari and Merc to choose between whatever irritating rules the FIA imposes, and hands-off freedom, they will opt for rules.

Ferrari wants above all to be able to say WE BEAT MERCEDES ON AN EVEN PITCH, meaning "Our car, under identical regulations, was better."
Bobster
2018-04-14 16:32:05 UTC
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Post by bra
Restrictive rules are what make racing and force innovation.
Throughout 100 years of motor sport, it's apparent that the so-called purpose of racing has NEVER been simply to win regardless. No team has ever, nor ever will, accept free-for-all unrestricted engineering.
(If to go faster and win had been the only purpose, they'd have been driving rockets by now.)
If you were to ask Ferrari and Merc to choose between whatever irritating rules the FIA imposes, and hands-off freedom, they will opt for rules.
Ferrari wants above all to be able to say WE BEAT MERCEDES ON AN EVEN PITCH, meaning "Our car, under identical regulations, was better."
I'm not convinced about the teams, and the manufacturers in the sport certainly have a different perspective. In his book, Mosley recalls a meeting he called with the engine manufacturers then in F1 in 2004. They were spending in excess of 1.5 billion euros between them - for engines only (not for anything else involved in running a team, for those that did run teams). When Mosley suggested that more restrictive rules would save them money and that this would be a good thing, Honda said that they thought there should only be two limitations on what they could do - a maximum capacity, and a ban on oval pistons (apparently gives you more valves, thus better breathing, and apparently very difficult to do).

See my earlier comment about Porsche slinging money at Can Am - and nearly killing it.

The teams are a bit more measured, but even then, teams who have the resources will spend them. Sure, they will try to meet the letter of the regs - or what they can defend as the letter of the regs - but the playing field doesn't have to be level, small or clearly defined.

The manufacturers are less keen on regulation, because they see motorsport as at least in part a marketing exercise, and so they are willing to spend more and more inclined to spend on R&D.

Look at Honda with McLaren. They spent a lot of money to make a turbo engine that was competitive under the '88 regs (which were very restrictive for turbos). Then produced a new V10 for '89, then an entirely new V12 for '91. Then they raced for '92 and were gone.

Merc, when they were partnered with McLaren, were using exotic, toxic materials for their pistons.

Lotus tried turbine cars, 4wd cars and other out of the box solutions.

And etc.
Bobster
2018-04-14 17:02:10 UTC
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Post by bra
Restrictive rules are what make racing and force innovation.
Throughout 100 years of motor sport, it's apparent that the so-called purpose of racing has NEVER been simply to win regardless. No team has ever, nor ever will, accept free-for-all unrestricted engineering.
(If to go faster and win had been the only purpose, they'd have been driving rockets by now.)
If you were to ask Ferrari and Merc to choose between whatever irritating rules the FIA imposes, and hands-off freedom, they will opt for rules.
Ferrari wants above all to be able to say WE BEAT MERCEDES ON AN EVEN PITCH, meaning "Our car, under identical regulations, was better."
There's another section of Mosley's book that deals with cheating. He spends some time on the matter of Toyota's very deliberate and ingenious cheating in the 1995 WRC. Had they won the championship, somebody in Toyota (maybe not the drivers) would have known that they had not won on a level playing field. They would have celebrated that win.

There was also the matter of turbos on rally cars that were supposed to be the same as on a run of 5000 production cars. Nobody really knew or could verify what had been on the production cars, but Mosley, with help from some boffins, had a plan for finding out. Before he could put the plan into action, but after he had announced it, two manufacturers contacted him to say that they had been running illegal turbos and would now stop.

I agree that rules can prompt innovation, but there are other ways of getting ahead if you have the will and the ingenuity. And competitors (in many sports) will take such steps - and take wins that they know they got through dubious methods.
News
2018-04-12 20:22:30 UTC
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Post by John
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
Not at all, it just shows how pathetic the people making rules these days are.
Would be interesting to compare magnitude and distribution of Porsche's
LMP1 and Mercedes F1 development budgets.
~misfit~
2018-04-13 00:31:29 UTC
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Post by News
Post by John
Post by News
Post by News
Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
Not at all, it just shows how pathetic the people making rules these days are.
Would be interesting to compare magnitude and distribution of
Porsche's LMP1 and Mercedes F1 development budgets.
Why do you constantly go down blind alleys?

The reason the Porsche was able to do this is because it didn't adhere to
any formula. It has more power than an F1 car, no fuel flow restrictions, no
big tyres in the wind messing up the aero and fucking full skirted
groud-effects! (Amongst other things not allowed in *Formula* 1.)

Apples and durian....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
News
2018-04-13 00:52:38 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
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Post by John
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Post by News
Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
"You might argue that the Evo is a pointless exercise..."
Not at all, it just shows how pathetic the people making rules these days are.
Would be interesting to compare magnitude and distribution of
Porsche's LMP1 and Mercedes F1 development budgets.
Why do you constantly go down blind alleys?
The reason the Porsche was able to do this is because it didn't adhere to
any formula. It has more power than an F1 car, no fuel flow restrictions, no
big tyres in the wind messing up the aero and fucking full skirted
groud-effects! (Amongst other things not allowed in *Formula* 1.)
Apples and durian....
Yeah, and how much for them apples? YFM
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-13 03:22:26 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Why do you constantly go down blind alleys?
Fuck you. Buzz kill. Cry baby.
More self inflicted pain.
Logoff loser.
Bobster
2018-04-13 03:32:48 UTC
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Analysis: How Porsche turned its LMP1 into an F1-beater
https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/how-porsche-turned-its-lmp-into-an-f1-beater-1025188/
Surely can't be the first time that a Porsche sports car has had more performance than an F1 car. I doubt that any contemporary F1 car could have matched a 917 - certainly not for grunt. If it were turned all the way up for just a couple of fast laps rather than turned a bit down to get through an endurance race.
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