Discussion:
Deserving drivers
(too old to reply)
keefy
2017-12-12 18:48:00 UTC
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I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Mark Jackson
2017-12-12 20:30:49 UTC
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are teams allowed to enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does
anyone know the answer?
Entries have been limited to exactly 2 cars for many years.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Piety is the mask, the inner force is tribal instinct.
- William James
a425couple
2017-12-12 20:36:41 UTC
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Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Sadly, one of the changes made a while back, absolutely
limits them to two cars.
I liked the old days when the teams that could, would
occasionally provide a third car for someone they
thought would be interesting & worthwhile.

For example first Lotus in 1968 offered two rides to
that interesting American named Mario Andretti.
Then, three in 1969. And then March offered him
three in 1970.
And in 1970 Ferrari offered him a part time ride,
and he won his first race with them!
By 1975, he was willing to get semi-serious about F1.
Brian W Lawrence
2017-12-15 15:01:47 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to
enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Sadly, one of the changes made a while back, absolutely
limits them to two cars.
I liked the old days when the teams that could, would
occasionally provide a third car for someone they
thought would be interesting & worthwhile.
For example first Lotus in 1968 offered two rides to
that interesting American named Mario Andretti.
Then, three in 1969. And then March offered him
three in 1970.
And in 1970 Ferrari offered him a part time ride,
and he won his first race with them!
By 1975, he was willing to get semi-serious about F1.
I think that maybe the last time a team had 3 cars was the 1983
European GP when Williams entered Jonathan Palmer alongside Rosberg &
Laffite. As it happened Laffite then failed to qualify so only two
started.

Wonder when 3 cars from the same team last raced or finished?
Bruce Hoult
2017-12-15 15:08:39 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by a425couple
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to
enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Sadly, one of the changes made a while back, absolutely
limits them to two cars.
I liked the old days when the teams that could, would
occasionally provide a third car for someone they
thought would be interesting & worthwhile.
For example first Lotus in 1968 offered two rides to
that interesting American named Mario Andretti.
Then, three in 1969. And then March offered him
three in 1970.
And in 1970 Ferrari offered him a part time ride,
and he won his first race with them!
By 1975, he was willing to get semi-serious about F1.
I think that maybe the last time a team had 3 cars was the 1983
European GP when Williams entered Jonathan Palmer alongside Rosberg &
Laffite. As it happened Laffite then failed to qualify so only two
started.
Wonder when 3 cars from the same team last raced or finished?
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC. It wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards the WCC, or even for the best two. The team would have to specify in advance (before P1) which two cars would count.

In which case the 3rd car is effectively another team anyway, even if sharing the livery and design and engineers.
Mark Jackson
2017-12-15 15:21:51 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC. It
wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards the WCC, or
even for the best two. The team would have to specify in advance
(before P1) which two cars would count.
"Fair" is defined by the rules. In the old days teams could enter more
than two cars and only the best-placed car counted toward the WCC.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Piety is the mask, the inner force is tribal instinct.
- William James
a425couple
2017-12-15 15:46:11 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC. It
wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards the WCC, or
even for the best two. The team would have to specify in advance
(before P1) which two cars would count.
"Fair" is defined by the rules.  In the old days teams could enter more
than two cars and only the best-placed car counted toward the WCC.
Yes.
The rules from the beginning and through 1978 only gave
points to the top finishing car of a constructor.
In 1979 they first changed, to allow two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Formula_One_season

"International Cup for F1 Constructors – final standings[edit]
Points towards the 1979 International Cup for F1 Constructors were
awarded on a 9–6–4–3–2–1 basis for the first six positions in each race.
This was the first year in which more than one car from each constructor
could score points at the same race (previously only the best-placed car
from each constructor was eligible to score points)."
Mark Jackson
2017-12-15 16:08:16 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by Bruce Hoult
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC. It
wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards the WCC, or
even for the best two. The team would have to specify in advance
(before P1) which two cars would count.
"Fair" is defined by the rules.  In the old days teams could enter more
than two cars and only the best-placed car counted toward the WCC.
Yes.
The rules from the beginning and through 1978 only gave
points to the top finishing car of a constructor.
In 1979 they first changed, to allow two.
Two, or any number?
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Formula_One_season
"International Cup for F1 Constructors – final standings[edit]
Points towards the 1979 International Cup for F1 Constructors were
awarded on a 9–6–4–3–2–1 basis for the first six positions in each race.
This was the first year in which more than one car from each constructor
could score points at the same race (previously only the best-placed car
from each constructor was eligible to score points).
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Piety is the mask, the inner force is tribal instinct.
- William James
Mark Jackson
2017-12-15 16:42:22 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bruce Hoult
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC.
It wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards
the WCC, or even for the best two. The team would have to
specify in advance (before P1) which two cars would count.
"Fair" is defined by the rules. In the old days teams could
enter more than two cars and only the best-placed car counted
toward the WCC.
Yes. The rules from the beginning and through 1978 only gave points
to the top finishing car of a constructor. In 1979 they first
changed, to allow two.
Two, or any number?
/Grand Prix/ by Trevor Griffiths answers my question:

"Constructors' Championship
Scoring from 1958 to 1978 matched the pattern of the drivers'
championship (though there was no point for fastest lap), with points
going to the best placed car of each manufacturer. From 1979 all races
counted and all cars finishing in the first six counted."

I'm not aware of any instance of more than two cars scoring for a
constructor, but the rules did not preclude this.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Piety is the mask, the inner force is tribal instinct.
- William James
keefy
2017-12-15 20:48:16 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by a425couple
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to
enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Sadly, one of the changes made a while back, absolutely
limits them to two cars.
I liked the old days when the teams that could, would
occasionally provide a third car for someone they
thought would be interesting & worthwhile.
For example first Lotus in 1968 offered two rides to
that interesting American named Mario Andretti.
Then, three in 1969. And then March offered him
three in 1970.
And in 1970 Ferrari offered him a part time ride,
and he won his first race with them!
By 1975, he was willing to get semi-serious about F1.
I think that maybe the last time a team had 3 cars was the 1983
European GP when Williams entered Jonathan Palmer alongside Rosberg &
Laffite. As it happened Laffite then failed to qualify so only two
started.
Wonder when 3 cars from the same team last raced or finished?
A team running three cars makes an obvious problem for the WCC. It wouldn't be fair for all three cars to be counted towards the WCC, or even for the best two. The team would have to specify in advance (before P1) which two cars would count.
How is it unfair? As long as all teams are allowed to enter the same
number of cars so it is their choice how many they enter that seems fair
to me. If you mean on grounds of cost that can be argued many different
ways. Is it fair Manor went bankrupt due at least in part to the unfair
way prize money is awarded? Or the fact that 2 years previously Bernie
appeared to just decide unilaterally to only pay the first 10 teams in
the championship when there were only 11 teams anyway? And there are
other ways to determine what drivers/cars will score WCC points.
Post by Bruce Hoult
In which case the 3rd car is effectively another team anyway, even if sharing the livery and design and engineers.
Sorry I do not understand that.
Mark Jackson
2017-12-15 15:18:49 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Wonder when 3 cars from the same team last raced or finished?
I think Canada 1980, when Jarier, Daly, and Thackwell all started for
Tyrrell. Unfortunately a first-lap accident took out Daly and Jarier;
the latter commandeered Thackwell's car for the restart.

Lotus ran Mansell in addition to Andretti and de Angelis earlier that
season, in Austria and the Netherlands.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Piety is the mask, the inner force is tribal instinct.
- William James
Brian W Lawrence
2017-12-15 15:48:47 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by a425couple
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein
deserves to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then
give them a drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams
allowed to enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know
the answer?
Sadly, one of the changes made a while back, absolutely
limits them to two cars.
I liked the old days when the teams that could, would
occasionally provide a third car for someone they
thought would be interesting & worthwhile.
For example first Lotus in 1968 offered two rides to
that interesting American named Mario Andretti.
Then, three in 1969. And then March offered him
three in 1970.
And in 1970 Ferrari offered him a part time ride,
and he won his first race with them!
By 1975, he was willing to get semi-serious about F1.
I think that maybe the last time a team had 3 cars was the 1983
European GP when Williams entered Jonathan Palmer alongside Rosberg &
Laffite. As it happened Laffite then failed to qualify so only two
started.
Wonder when 3 cars from the same team last raced or finished?
OK, later than 1983 - Germany 1985, Renault fielded 14 Hesnault, 15
Tambay, 16 Warwick. All 3 started but none finished.

In 1984 Renault also entered 3 cars in Portugal - 15 Tambay, 16 Warwick,
& 33 Streiff. Only Tambay finished.

Before Palmer/Williams/Europe/1983:

1980 Canada & USA - Tyrrell entered 3 Jarier, 4 Daly & 43 Thackwell. In
Canada all 3 started, but only Jarier finished, Daly & Thackwell went
out on lap one. In the USA Thackwell didn't qualify.

Also in 1980, at the Austrian GP Lotus entered 11 Andretti, 12 de
Angelis & 43 Mansell. Also in Netherlands & Italy. All 3 started in
AUT & NED, Nige DNQd in ITA, only one driver finished.

Tyrrell entered 3 for USA & CDN in 1979, Derek Daly in 3rd car. All 3
started only one finished.

OK, probably more frequent the further back you go, but I'm quitting
at this point. I may return to it in the future.
Willsy
2017-12-15 14:07:29 UTC
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Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no longer
fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not his actions
behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or was he paid by the
team?
Bruce Hoult
2017-12-15 14:11:27 UTC
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Post by Willsy
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no longer
fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not his actions
behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or was he paid by the
team?
He may not have done much wrong, but after several seasons he didn't look like a future WDC and Red Bull have a long line of other young drivers who deserve a chance to show that they might be.

If a lower order team had a spare seat in future then he might well get another drive.
a425couple
2017-12-16 14:51:24 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Willsy
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no longer
fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not his actions
behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or was he paid by the
team?
He may not have done much wrong, but after several seasons he didn't look like a future WDC and Red Bull have a long line of other young drivers who deserve a chance to show that they might be.
If a lower order team had a spare seat in future then he might well get another drive.
I agree.
Years ago Kvyat might have looked like he deserved a spot, but
lately his results showed it would be very valid for teams to
try to find someone better.
In 2017, at Toro Rosso, he scored two 9th places and a tenth,
for a grand total of 5 points. Meanwhile, his team mate
Carlos Sainz scored many times and even finished a race in
forth place for a total of 48 points for the team.
48 versis 5 is a huge difference in results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_FIA_Formula_One_World_Championship

In Kvyat's 17 races for Toto Rosso in 2016 he was also resoundingly
outscored by team mate Sainz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_FIA_Formula_One_World_Championship
~misfit~
2017-12-15 23:11:26 UTC
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Post by Willsy
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein
deserves to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then
give them a drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams
allowed to enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone
know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no
longer fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not
his actions behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or
was he paid by the team?
I think that the driver decisions by RBR were largely made due to the fact
that they are changing PU suppliers next year. They need at least one driver
who is able to give experienced and accurate feedback to the engineers as
well as collect points when possible. Apparently Kvyat doesn't fill the
first part of the requirement.

Therefore, as they were already commited to running the GP2 winner Gasly and
Sainz had gone to Renault they threw their net wider and looked at past and
present RB drivers for someone who fitted the bill.

Kvyats failing wasn't so much on the track, rather it was his communication
with the engineers that was lacking.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-12-16 23:09:20 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Willsy
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein
deserves to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then
give them a drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams
allowed to enter 3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone
know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no
longer fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not
his actions behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or
was he paid by the team?
I think that the driver decisions by RBR
That should read STR, not RBR.
Post by ~misfit~
were largely made due to the
fact that they are changing PU suppliers next year. They need at
least one driver who is able to give experienced and accurate
feedback to the engineers as well as collect points when possible.
Apparently Kvyat doesn't fill the first part of the requirement.
Therefore, as they were already commited to running the GP2 winner
Gasly and Sainz had gone to Renault they threw their net wider and
looked at past and present RB drivers for someone who fitted the bill.
Kvyats failing wasn't so much on the track, rather it was his
communication with the engineers that was lacking.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
build
2017-12-18 12:43:02 UTC
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On Saturday, 16 December 2017 10:11:31 UTC+11, ~misfit~ wrote:
<snip>
Post by ~misfit~
Kvyats failing wasn't so much on the track, rather it was his communication
with the engineers that was lacking.
Shaun.
G'day Shaun,
How do you know Kyyat was lacking in his communication with engineers?

Thanks,
build
t***@gmail.com
2017-12-19 02:34:35 UTC
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Post by build
G'day Shaun,
How do you know Kyyat was lacking in his communication with engineers?
He doesn't know.
Misfart has problem with young tight asses in F1.
That he will never be able to invade.
~misfit~
2017-12-19 06:58:11 UTC
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Post by build
<snip>
Post by ~misfit~
Kvyats failing wasn't so much on the track, rather it was his
communication with the engineers that was lacking.
Shaun.
G'day Shaun,
How do you know Kyyat was lacking in his communication with engineers?
Thanks,
build
It was mentioned during Sky's coverage by Ted Kravitz a few months back,
after Sainz left.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
m***@gmail.com
2017-12-19 07:35:09 UTC
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Post by build
<snip>
Post by ~misfit~
Kvyats failing wasn't so much on the track, rather it was his communication
with the engineers that was lacking.
Shaun.
G'day Shaun,
How do you know Kyyat was lacking in his communication with engineers?
Thanks,
build
Apparently there was a problem with Kvyat and one engineer. At Austin he ended up on the other side of the garage, and worked with a team that did not include that engineer and had a good drive.

That's not the same as saying he can't talk to engineers full stop. He didn't get on with a particular engineer.
m***@gmail.com
2017-12-17 04:17:59 UTC
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Post by Willsy
Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
Fully agree re Kvyat. I don't think he did anything wrong. He face no longer
fitted for some reason. Whatever it was, I think it was not his actions
behind the wheel. Did Kvyat bring in his own sponsors, or was he paid by the
team?
Here's an interesting perspective from Marko
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/133576/marko-kvyat-had-more-talent-than-gaslyhartley

It's supportive in many ways. He says that Kvyat had more natural speed than either of the 2018 STR drivers, but that "something happened to him mentally".

What Marko is saying rings true to me. I remember early on he was a bit of a dare devil, making audacious passes and not being afraid to scrap. And he was decently fast.

But it didn't last, and he was in competition with Verstappen, clearly a rising star. As pointed out already in this thread, this year, his team mate at STR outscored him better than 10 to 1. A big contrast from what we saw early on, and THAT is a large part of the reason he's not in the car next year - he wasn't getting his job done.
t***@gmail.com
2017-12-17 04:25:36 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
and THAT is a large part
Great use of the all caps with 'THAT'.
Real fucking gay.
m***@gmail.com
2017-12-17 07:27:42 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
and THAT is a large part
Great use of the all caps with 'THAT'.
Real fucking gay.
You're just pissed off that that redneck hate monger Moore didn't prevail in Alabama.
t***@gmail.com
2017-12-18 02:53:10 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
You're just pissed off that that redneck hate monger Moore didn't prevail in Alabama.
Oh my, this coming from a guy in south africa.
m***@gmail.com
2017-12-18 04:39:48 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
You're just pissed off that that redneck hate monger Moore didn't prevail in Alabama.
Oh my, this coming from a guy in south africa.
You will have noticed how many white right wingers we have running the show here.

Or maybe you haven't.
geoff
2017-12-18 10:46:21 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
You're just pissed off that that redneck hate monger Moore didn't prevail in Alabama.
Oh my, this coming from a guy in south africa.
You will have noticed how many white right wingers we have running the show here.
Or maybe you haven't.
He would call white conservative right-wingers gay liberals.

geoff
m***@gmail.com
2017-12-16 07:04:10 UTC
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Post by keefy
I have read in the last week or so that Franz Tost says Daniil Kvyat
deserves to be in F1 and that Toto Wolff says Pascal Wehrlein deserves
to be in F1. My natural thought is if they deserve it then give them a
drive. Which raises the question in my mind, are teams allowed to enter
3 cars or are they restricted to 2? Does anyone know the answer?
This has evolved over the years, but I can't give exact dates. Except that 1991 was the last season in which teams could enter LESS than two cars.

For a longer time teams could enter NO MORE than two cars, and had to construct the car themselves. So at some point customer teams were ruled out. Though certainly into the mid 70s at least, a team could use a car they hadn't constructed.

I believe there is a provision to allow teams to enter more than 2 cars, but this is only if the number of cars entered falls below a certain number.

It would be very expensive to enter and support a third car.
t***@gmail.com
2017-12-17 04:28:34 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
enter NO MORE than two cars
Great use of the all caps in 'NO MORE'.
Confirms your homosexuality.
t***@gmail.com
2017-12-17 04:32:55 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
enter LESS
Fuck off, enough of the all caps.
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