Discussion:
Ocon and the Break-by-Wire Failure
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D Munz
2018-05-29 13:08:09 UTC
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What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...

FWIW
DLM
Willsy
2018-05-29 13:38:45 UTC
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Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Use the gearbox, and also deliberately invoke a battery charge in order
to slow the car down.

That's all I can think of.
geoff
2018-05-29 21:02:11 UTC
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Post by Willsy
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Use the gearbox, and also deliberately invoke a battery charge in order
to slow the car down.
That's all I can think of.
I take great delight in driving bendy roads without touching my gears,
while cars ahead stab the brakes for every curve.

geoff
~misfit~
2018-05-29 23:48:16 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Willsy
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere... FWIW
DLM
Use the gearbox, and also deliberately invoke a battery charge in
order to slow the car down.
That's all I can think of.
I take great delight in driving bendy roads without touching my gears,
while cars ahead stab the brakes for every curve.
People who drive cars with automatic gearboxes have no choice but to use the
brakes often. There are very few true manual cars on the road these days.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
geoff
2018-05-30 01:56:04 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
c gearboxes have no choice but to use the
brakes often. There are very few tr
(Old, 1998) Toyota Caldina with Tiptronic.

geoff
geoff
2018-05-30 01:55:20 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Willsy
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails?  How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Use the gearbox, and also deliberately invoke a battery charge in order
to slow the car down.
That's all I can think of.
I take great delight in driving bendy roads without touching my gears,
while cars ahead stab the brakes for every curve.
geoff
Sorry, I meant "without touching my brakes" !

geoff
D Munz
2018-05-29 13:52:01 UTC
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Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Ok, answering my own question after a brief slog through the interwebs...

From a 2014 Racecar Engineering article:

"When the driver hits the brake it is not just the carbon brake discs and pads that slows the car down on a 2014 car, the energy recover system also does a significant amount too, rather like engine braking but a much stronger effect. This means that the drivers left pedal (F1 cars have no clutch pedal) is no longer linked directly to the rear brakes instead it is linked to a computer which then controls the rear brakes. The front brakes continue to operate in the same way as they always have done."

The BBW only applies to the rears, so there is "conventional" breaking at the front. Which actually makes the whole business more impressive if Ocon was only able to slow the fronts!

FWIW
DLM
build
2018-05-29 15:23:44 UTC
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Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Brian W Lawrence
2018-05-29 15:44:25 UTC
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Post by build
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Amazing that he still finished 6th then :-)
build
2018-05-29 15:55:48 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by build
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Amazing that he still finished 6th then :-)
LOL, I didn't read subject properly. I was referring to Leclerc of coarse. Thanks for the heads up :-)
M2T
2018-05-29 16:02:29 UTC
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Post by build
LOL, I didn't read subject properly.
Pissed again...
Bigbird
2018-05-29 16:24:16 UTC
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Post by M2T
Post by build
LOL, I didn't read subject properly.
Not for the first time today.
Post by M2T
Pissed again...
Patronising gits often fall... even from lowly heights... under the
influence or otherwise.
larkim
2018-05-29 15:48:39 UTC
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Post by build
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Wrong driver build. Unless you think Autosport got it wrong.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136366/brakebywire-failure-struck-ocon-in-monaco-gp
~misfit~
2018-05-30 00:24:15 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by build
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Wrong driver build. Unless you think Autosport got it wrong.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136366/brakebywire-failure-struck-ocon-in-monaco-gp
Artciles like this are a good example of why I dislike F1 'jounalism'. They
turn up a few days after the race to try to keep up the hype (and site
traffic).

Evidence: Fernley (via Autosport) "Esteban LOST the brake-by-wire for the
last two laps." (My emphasis.)

Yet in the pen after the race Esteban said that they had "a little failure
with the brakes but that didn't stop me" and that he was catching Bottas and
Kimi towards the end and, with a couple more laps he could have "done
something".

Decide for yourself, don't let the money-grabbing psuedo-news sites
spoon-feed you pap. I suggest that Fernley didn't lie, maybe he said Ocon
lost brake by wire *adjustment* or something similar and the journos decide
to trim the quote?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2018-05-30 02:05:23 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by build
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
The BBW did not fail. The front left disc exploded.
Wrong driver build. Unless you think Autosport got it wrong.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136366/brakebywire-failure-struck-ocon-in-monaco-gp
Artciles like this are a good example of why I dislike F1
'jounalism'. They turn up a few days after the race to try to keep up
the hype (and site traffic).
Evidence: Fernley (via Autosport) "Esteban LOST the brake-by-wire for
the last two laps." (My emphasis.)
Yet in the pen after the race Esteban said that they had "a little
failure with the brakes but that didn't stop me" and that he was
catching Bottas and Kimi towards the end and, with a couple more laps
he could have "done something".
Decide for yourself, don't let the money-grabbing psuedo-news sites
spoon-feed you pap. I suggest that Fernley didn't lie, maybe he said
Ocon lost brake by wire *adjustment* or something similar and the
journos decide to trim the quote?
Right, an hour or so of research later and I've discovered that a complete /
total failure of the brake-by-wire system *only* takes the MGU-K out of the
braking equation. The disc brakes still work. However (as I already knew)
the rear discs have been reduced in size and stopping power because the
MGU-K takes up to 4 MJ of braking force away from them per lap. So they
would get hot and the bias would have to be moved forward a few percent.

So if Ocon had a brake-by-wire failure for the last two (?) laps it only
meant he'd have to manage his brakes a little differently and perhaps lost
5% total retardation ability. It's like having 10% of the problem that Dan
Riccardo was driving most of the race with.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2018-05-30 02:08:11 UTC
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Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Here's a 3 minute 20 second explaination of how Formula 1 BBW systems work;


Here's the point in that video where Brembo show what happens during failure
of the BBW system;
http://youtu.be/1Gv_nOI5T4U

Enjoy. :)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
D Munz
2018-05-30 11:54:00 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by D Munz
What exactly happens when the break-by-wire fails? How does the
driver control the speed or even break at all. Maybe they have a
handbrake hidden in there somewhere...
FWIW
DLM
Here's a 3 minute 20 second explaination of how Formula 1 BBW systems work;
http://youtu.be/1Gv_nOI5T4U
Here's the point in that video where Brembo show what happens during failure
of the BBW system;
http://youtu.be/1Gv_nOI5T4U
Enjoy. :)
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Thanks for this and the prior post. This is a good explanation and I guess it was not as dramatic as presented.

FWIW
DLM

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