Discussion:
How will Seb react to Charlie?
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Sir Tim
2018-09-12 18:32:25 UTC
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2019 looks like being an interesting season.

Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?

I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
Vandoorne. Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's problem: a
big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team behind you.
Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull and Kimi has been a
reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps because he cares
more about driving than politics.

Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable tactic
but not so good for us spectators.

Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver. Make no
mistake, Seb is very *very* good, but he has shown that he is vulnerable
to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his promise and that
he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full - then we will find
out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just (sic) very, very good.


--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
M2T
2018-09-12 20:04:12 UTC
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On 12/09/2018 19:32, Sir Tim wrote:
> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>
> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
> If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?
>
> I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
> Vandoorne. Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
> and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's problem: a
> big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team behind you.
> Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull and Kimi has been a
> reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps because he cares
> more about driving than politics.
>
> Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
> winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
> to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable tactic
> but not so good for us spectators.
>
> Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
> there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver. Make no
> mistake, Seb is very *very* good, but he has shown that he is vulnerable
> to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his promise and that
> he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full - then we will find
> out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just (sic) very, very good.
>
>

To the best of my knowledge, Ferrari have always had a No1 driver, they
have never allowed their drivers to race. I can't see that changing,
it's in their DNA, like the management infighting, and no one will has
the power or desire to change it.

I've been reading John Barnard's book. He fell victim to Ron Dennis,
Ferrari (twice), Flavio and Tom Walkinshaw - no surprise he got out of
F1. Well worth getting a copy.
geoff
2018-09-12 21:44:30 UTC
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On 13/09/2018 6:32 AM, Sir Tim wrote:
> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>
> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
> If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?
>
> I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
> Vandoorne. Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
> and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's problem: a
> big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team behind you.
> Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull and Kimi has been a
> reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps because he cares
> more about driving than politics.
>
> Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
> winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
> to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable tactic
> but not so good for us spectators.
>
> Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
> there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver. Make no
> mistake, Seb is very *very* good, but he has shown that he is vulnerable
> to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his promise and that
> he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full - then we will find
> out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just (sic) very, very good.
>
>


I'm sure many/most drivers would bend over far, very far, to get a
drive (any sort of drive) with Ferrari. Especially with the car as it is
now.

geoff
t***@gmail.com
2018-09-12 23:09:24 UTC
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On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:32:28 PM UTC-6, Sir Tim wrote:
> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>
> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
> If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?
>
> I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
> Vandoorne. Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
> and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's problem: a
> big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team behind you.
> Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull and Kimi has been a
> reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps because he cares
> more about driving than politics.
>
> Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
> winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
> to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable tactic
> but not so good for us spectators.
>
> Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
> there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver. Make no
> mistake, Seb is very *very* good, but he has shown that he is vulnerable
> to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his promise and that
> he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full - then we will find
> out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just (sic) very, very good.

Fuck are you negative.
keefy
2018-09-12 23:26:18 UTC
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On 12/09/2018 20:32, Sir Tim wrote:
> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>
> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?

Oh, from reading the subject line I thought you meant Charlie Whiting! I
did wonder what you may have read or heard, and of course there is
history of Vettel making clear he was not happy with Whiting. Also of
course I have not previously heard anyone referring to LeClerc as
Charlie as opposed to Charles.

> If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?

We can only hope so, which of course everyone would say.
>
> I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
> Vandoorne.

But LeClercis now more than half way through a full season and has been
impressive all that time, at least IMO. The same cannot be said of Van
Doorne who impressed when he stood in for Alonso for one race in 2016
but has not done so since.

Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
> and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's problem: a
> big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team behind you.
> Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull

And he was, I believe, a product of the Red Bull young driver programme.
LeClerc is a product of the Ferrari young driver programme, so might
they favour `their own guy´ over the import, especially if they are
closely matched?

and Kimi has been a
> reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps because he cares
> more about driving than politics.

My impression is that Kimi is too gentlemanly for modern F1. For example
he does not run a competitor off the outside of the track if they try to
overtake him around the outside. The same cannot be said of his team
mate or indeed some other drivers. What I see is that Kimi races very
fairly but few others do.
>
> Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
> winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
> to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable tactic
> but not so good for us spectators.
>
> Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
> there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver.

You under-rate the ability of a 4 times WDC because you don't like him
as a person? I do not like him as a person either but I think he,
Hamilton and Alonso are very closely matched in driving skill level and
clear of all the other drivers.

Make no
> mistake, Seb is very *very* good,

At controlling the car, but maybe not so good at controlling a situation
or indeed himself.

but he has shown that he is vulnerable
> to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his promise and that
> he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full - then we will find
> out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just (sic) very, very good.

2 drivers good enough to win WDCs in one team, are we about to see a
replay of Alonso and Hamilton at McLaren?
>
>
Sir Tim
2018-09-13 06:31:31 UTC
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keefy <***@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 12/09/2018 20:32, Sir Tim wrote:
>> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>>
>> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
>
> Oh, from reading the subject line I thought you meant Charlie Whiting! I
> did wonder what you may have read or heard, and of course there is
> history of Vettel making clear he was not happy with Whiting. Also of
> course I have not previously heard anyone referring to LeClerc as
> Charlie as opposed to Charles.

Yes, sorry about that - I was attempting to be lighthearted.

> You underrate the ability of a 4 times WDC because you don't like him
> as a person?

No. I was attempting to warn against that attitude. Obviously I failed :-(


--
Sir Tim
~misfit~
2018-09-12 23:58:27 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet Sir Tim wrote:
> 2019 looks like being an interesting season.
>
> Is Charles Leclerc as good as people think he is?
> If he is will Ferrari allow him to race for the win?

I don't mind going on record to say Leclerc is as good as Verstappen and
Ocon but with better temperament control than Verstappen. I think he'll
ultimately be better than Vettel (though it'll be hard to beat Vettel's
lucky 4 x WDC streak in a dominant car).

> I have a nasty feeling that Leclerc may turn out to be another
> Vandoorne. Admittedly Stoffel had the twin disadvantages of a duff car
> and Alonso as a team mate, but therein lies some of Charles's
> problem: a big part of success in F1 is the ability to unite the team
> behind you. Seb was Helmut Marko's golden boy at Red Bull and Kimi
> has been a reasonably compliant team mate at Ferrari - perhaps
> because he cares more about driving than politics.

... and he's very good at what he cares about.

> Enzo Ferrari loved to pit his drivers against each other and enjoyed
> winding them up but, since Schumacher the team seems to have preferred
> to put its main effort behind one driver - a perfectly acceptable
> tactic but not so good for us spectators.
>
> Because many people (myself included) dislike Vettel as a personality
> there is a tendency to underrate his ability as a driver. Make no
> mistake, Seb is very *very* good, but he has shown that he is
> vulnerable to pressure. I just hope that Leclerc can justify his
> promise and that he will be allowed to test his team mate to the full

Agree with all of that.

> - then we will find out whether Seb is one of the "greats" or just
> (sic) very, very good.

I thought we already found that out in 2014 when he only beat Dan in 3 out
of 19 races in the same car - in a team he'd been in for 4 years already!
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2018-09-13 01:22:55 UTC
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On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> I don't mind going on record

you fag
t***@gmail.com
2018-09-13 03:18:41 UTC
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On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> I don't mind going on record to say

Fuck you, cunt hole, sheep shagging, gay ass,
loser, asshole.
t***@gmail.com
2018-09-13 03:26:41 UTC
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On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> I don't mind going on record to say

And obviously you don't mind being a fucking cunt.
t***@gmail.com
2018-09-13 03:30:30 UTC
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On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 5:58:31 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> I don't mind going on record

You don't mind leaching of the government.
And don't mind pirating F1 tv coverage.
Loser. Thief. Piece of shit. Cunt hole.
l***@gmail.com
2018-09-17 15:04:28 UTC
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We saw how overrated Vettel is in 2014...
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