Discussion:
Continual rule changes, because ----?
(too old to reply)
bra
2018-06-04 17:44:34 UTC
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Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?

It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its organizing body.

I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong" with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?

I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?

Someone will say "It's to jazz up the audiences", or, worse, "It's because ABC is winning too much." That to me is the kiss of death for a sport that's supposed to be the pinnacle of pure engineering and driving competition.

I would hate to be an engineer who is told several times a year every year to alter the car's parameters. When for god's sake will engineers be permitted to simply continue developing their design? So frustrating.
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 17:55:34 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 10:44 AM, bra wrote:
> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?

In a word: because large diameter rims with low-profile tires are what
people associate with high performance these days.

>
> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
> organizing body.
>
> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?

There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering standpoint.

- tires with short sidewalls really are a better choice for a
performance vehicle (this can be taken to far of course).

- larger diameter wheels allow for larger diameter brakes, which are
more able to dissipate the kinetic energy they change into heat.

>
> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am
> offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue
> in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and
> engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>
> Someone will say "It's to jazz up the audiences", or, worse, "It's
> because ABC is winning too much." That to me is the kiss of death
> for a sport that's supposed to be the pinnacle of pure engineering
> and driving competition.
>
> I would hate to be an engineer who is told several times a year every
> year to alter the car's parameters. When for god's sake will
> engineers be permitted to simply continue developing their design? So
> frustrating.

There is no way you'll see a change to 18-inch wheels DURING the year.
bra
2018-06-04 18:23:22 UTC
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On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:55:36 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>
> There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering standpoint.
>

If you know this today, why has nobody in the sixty years of Formula One engineering known that "there's a lot wrong" with 13-inch wheels?


And, since no wheel on earth can be perfect, why not leave engineers and drivers with the 13-inch wheel and let them use their skills? If the drives and engineers are any good, we will continue to see great racing and great engineering.
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 18:39:31 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 11:23 AM, bra wrote:
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:55:36 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>>
>> There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering
>> standpoint.
>>
>
> If you know this today, why has nobody in the sixty years of Formula
> One engineering known that "there's a lot wrong" with 13-inch
> wheels?

Cars have far greater performance today than they did sixty years ago...

...and 13 inch wheels have been mandated for a good deal of that.


>
>
> And, since no wheel on earth can be perfect, why not leave engineers
> and drivers with the 13-inch wheel and let them use their skills? If
> the drives and engineers are any good, we will continue to see great
> racing and great engineering.
So are you arguing that there should NEVER been any rule changes?
bra
2018-06-04 19:25:15 UTC
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On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 11:39:32 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2018-06-04 11:23 AM, bra wrote:
> > On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:55:36 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
> >>
> >> There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering
> >> standpoint.
> >>
> >
> > If you know this today, why has nobody in the sixty years of Formula
> > One engineering known that "there's a lot wrong" with 13-inch
> > wheels?
>
> Cars have far greater performance today than they did sixty years ago...
>
> ...and 13 inch wheels have been mandated for a good deal of that.
>
Twenty years ago the world's best experts decided on 13-inch wheels: --- not long ago.

My point is that engineering should be SOLVING difficulties and problems,not calling for different parameters.

I don't call for 'no change, ever'. I'd just like, an ideological stance, to let engineers get better and better results from a given parameter. If/when 18-inch wheels come in, the engineers will be busy for years optimizing those 18-inches --- but why change in the first place. In 2030 will it be 20-inch wheels, or 10-inch wheels?
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 20:03:30 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 12:25 PM, bra wrote:
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 11:39:32 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2018-06-04 11:23 AM, bra wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:55:36 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering
>>>> standpoint.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you know this today, why has nobody in the sixty years of
>>> Formula One engineering known that "there's a lot wrong" with
>>> 13-inch wheels?
>>
>> Cars have far greater performance today than they did sixty years
>> ago...
>>
>> ...and 13 inch wheels have been mandated for a good deal of that.
>>
> Twenty years ago the world's best experts decided on 13-inch wheels:
> --- not long ago.

No. TWENTY years ago it was a mandated rule held over from an earlier
time. Hell, I think you'll find that the rule mandating 13" wheels is
more than 50 years old.

>
> My point is that engineering should be SOLVING difficulties and
> problems,not calling for different parameters.
>
> I don't call for 'no change, ever'. I'd just like, an ideological
> stance, to let engineers get better and better results from a given
> parameter. If/when 18-inch wheels come in, the engineers will be
> busy for years optimizing those 18-inches --- but why change in the
> first place. In 2030 will it be 20-inch wheels, or 10-inch wheels?

Sorry, but this is not a particularly difficult change for a competent
engineer; that is, assuming the overall tire diameters remain the same.

There'll be some redesign of the brakes and the upright, but if you
didn't want to change the location of the wishbone pivots in relation to
the tire, you wouldn't have to.

As someone else already pointed out, Michelin (for one) is not
interested in returning to F1 unless the tires are made more relevant to
what they want to sell to the public.

The point I was making about "no change" is that you can take your
stance on pretty much ANY rule change.
Not Bernie Ecclestone
2018-06-04 20:25:39 UTC
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:03:30 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:

>Hell, I think you'll find that the rule mandating 13" wheels is
>more than 50 years old.

Tyrrell P34, 1976 & 1977 10 inch front wheels, four of them, 3rd & 5th in the
constructors championship, one win, 14 podiums.

--
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 20:35:13 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 1:25 PM, Not Bernie Ecclestone wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:03:30 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:
>
>> Hell, I think you'll find that the rule mandating 13" wheels is
>> more than 50 years old.
>
> Tyrrell P34, 1976 & 1977 10 inch front wheels, four of them, 3rd & 5th in the
> constructors championship, one win, 14 podiums.

Conceded...

It may even have been that car that was the reason for the rule.

:-)
Not Bernie Ecclestone
2018-06-04 21:15:56 UTC
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:35:13 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:

>On 2018-06-04 1:25 PM, Not Bernie Ecclestone wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:03:30 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:
>>
>>> Hell, I think you'll find that the rule mandating 13" wheels is
>>> more than 50 years old.
>>
>> Tyrrell P34, 1976 & 1977 10 inch front wheels, four of them, 3rd & 5th in the
>> constructors championship, one win, 14 podiums.
>
>Conceded...
>
>It may even have been that car that was the reason for the rule.
>
>:-)

Possibly. The later early 80's Willlams 6 wheelers (four at the back) that
never raced had normal diameter rims, but all with the same width as the fronts.

March also had the 2-4-0 in '76, again with all front rims

--
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 21:19:28 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 2:15 PM, Not Bernie Ecclestone wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:35:13 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-06-04 1:25 PM, Not Bernie Ecclestone wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 13:03:30 -0700, Alan Baker <***@ness.biz> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hell, I think you'll find that the rule mandating 13" wheels is
>>>> more than 50 years old.
>>>
>>> Tyrrell P34, 1976 & 1977 10 inch front wheels, four of them, 3rd & 5th in the
>>> constructors championship, one win, 14 podiums.
>>
>> Conceded...
>>
>> It may even have been that car that was the reason for the rule.
>>
>> :-)
>
> Possibly. The later early 80's Willlams 6 wheelers (four at the back) that
> never raced had normal diameter rims, but all with the same width as the fronts.
>
> March also had the 2-4-0 in '76, again with all front rims
>

"2-4-0"?

Sounds like a locomotive.

:-)
M2T
2018-06-04 22:18:52 UTC
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On 04/06/2018 22:15, Not Bernie Ecclestone wrote:

>
>
> March also had the 2-4-0 in '76, again with all front rims
>


Were they racing steam trains ?
Martin Harran
2018-06-04 22:18:03 UTC
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 12:25:15 -0700 (PDT), bra
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 11:39:32 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2018-06-04 11:23 AM, bra wrote:
>> > On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 10:55:36 AM UTC-7, Alan Baker wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There's a lot wrong with 13 inch wheels from an engineering
>> >> standpoint.
>> >>
>> >
>> > If you know this today, why has nobody in the sixty years of Formula
>> > One engineering known that "there's a lot wrong" with 13-inch
>> > wheels?
>>
>> Cars have far greater performance today than they did sixty years ago...
>>
>> ...and 13 inch wheels have been mandated for a good deal of that.
>>
>Twenty years ago the world's best experts decided on 13-inch wheels: --- not long ago.

In todays' world of continuous acceleration of development across all
technological sectors, 20 years is a lifetime.

>
>My point is that engineering should be SOLVING difficulties and problems,not calling for different parameters.
>
>I don't call for 'no change, ever'. I'd just like, an ideological stance, to let engineers get better and better results from a given parameter. If/when 18-inch wheels come in, the engineers will be busy for years optimizing those 18-inches --- but why change in the first place. In 2030 will it be 20-inch wheels, or 10-inch wheels?
D Munz
2018-06-04 18:40:02 UTC
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It is simpler than all that.

Cost cutting.

All the rules tweaks are designed to keep the show up while trying to force costs down and appeasing the big manufacturers. Everyone wanted "road car relivance" which is meaningless on a competition car unless artificially forced.

Back to the old Ron Dennis definition of (paraphrasing) fits in a box, has a safety tub and runs gas. Everything else is legal and if you can't afford it, you don't belong.

Seriously, all the rinky-drink rules changes are designed to keep the manufacturers happy and/or force cost down. Of course in Formula 1 it never works. Teams will always push the envelope and find ways spend the money.

FWIW
DLM
DumbedDownUSA
2018-06-04 18:41:15 UTC
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bra wrote:

> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>
> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
> organizing body.
>

There is one particular thing me and Bernie agreed on. The regulations
needed to be rewrittten from scratch. Tinkering has not brought the
desired results in 20 years.

Too much of F1 has been like politics, short term thinking, quick
results; but there is no reason for F1 to be like that. There should be
people who are looking five years ahead deciding what the sport should
be and then masterminding the transition. Things like DRS should have
only ever been short term initiatives bridging fundamental changes.
Instead they are accepted as solutions though they have not solved
anything.

The one thing they could say, in gist, that would give me hope that my
interest in F1 could be rekindled is something like "we shall muddle
through for now but in 2022 (or so) we will have a totally new f1
formula developed from scratch"

Revolution not evolution!

--
If I am not the real DDUSA I must be the overweight attention seeking
loser sitting on my mothers couch in underpants I haven't changed in a
week.
Trump averages eight falsehoods a day; how you doin'?
M2T
2018-06-04 18:58:55 UTC
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On 04/06/2018 18:44, bra wrote:
> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>
> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its organizing body.
>
> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong" with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>
> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>
> Someone will say "It's to jazz up the audiences", or, worse, "It's because ABC is winning too much." That to me is the kiss of death for a sport that's supposed to be the pinnacle of pure engineering and driving competition.
>
> I would hate to be an engineer who is told several times a year every year to alter the car's parameters. When for god's sake will engineers be permitted to simply continue developing their design? So frustrating.
>

The tyre manufacturers want to see F1 using a tyre that looks like the
tyres they sell to the public. Michelin won't return to F1 unless the
tyres are changed.


> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/118945/michelin-ready-to-return-to-formula-1
~misfit~
2018-06-05 00:11:58 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet M2T wrote:
> On 04/06/2018 18:44, bra wrote:
>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>>
>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>> organizing body. I must assume, in this instance, that there is now
>> "something wrong"
>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello? I adore engineering
>> (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am
>> offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue
>> in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and
>> engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>>
>> Someone will say "It's to jazz up the audiences", or, worse, "It's
>> because ABC is winning too much." That to me is the kiss of death
>> for a sport that's supposed to be the pinnacle of pure engineering
>> and driving competition. I would hate to be an engineer who is told
>> several times a year
>> every year to alter the car's parameters. When for god's sake will
>> engineers be permitted to simply continue developing their design?
>> So frustrating.
>
> The tyre manufacturers want to see F1 using a tyre that looks like the
> tyres they sell to the public. Michelin won't return to F1 unless the
> tyres are changed.
>
>
>> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/118945/michelin-ready-to-return-to-formula-1

That artcile is over 3 years old though perhaps Michelin still feel the same
way.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Alan Baker
2018-06-05 00:14:43 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 5:11 PM, ~misfit~ wrote:
> Once upon a time on usenet M2T wrote:
>> On 04/06/2018 18:44, bra wrote:
>>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>>>
>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>>> organizing body. I must assume, in this instance, that there is now
>>> "something wrong"
>>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
>>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
>>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello? I adore engineering
>>> (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am
>>> offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue
>>> in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and
>>> engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>>>
>>> Someone will say "It's to jazz up the audiences", or, worse, "It's
>>> because ABC is winning too much." That to me is the kiss of death
>>> for a sport that's supposed to be the pinnacle of pure engineering
>>> and driving competition. I would hate to be an engineer who is told
>>> several times a year
>>> every year to alter the car's parameters. When for god's sake will
>>> engineers be permitted to simply continue developing their design?
>>> So frustrating.
>>
>> The tyre manufacturers want to see F1 using a tyre that looks like the
>> tyres they sell to the public. Michelin won't return to F1 unless the
>> tyres are changed.
>>
>>
>>> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/118945/michelin-ready-to-return-to-formula-1
>
> That artcile is over 3 years old though perhaps Michelin still feel the same
> way.
>

Can you think of some reason they wouldn't?
M2T
2018-06-05 00:41:34 UTC
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On 05/06/2018 01:11, ~misfit~ wrote:

>>
>>> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/118945/michelin-ready-to-return-to-formula-1
>
> That artcile is over 3 years old though perhaps Michelin still feel the same
> way.
>

They do, as do Pirelli

> https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136501/f1-pushing-for-bigger-wheels-for-2021


> Pirelli has pushed for the change for several years and has demonstrated concept tyres, with Charles Pic running them on a Lotus at Silverstone in 2014 (pictured above) and Martin Brundle trying them on a GP2 test car in Monaco in '15.
>
> The tyre manufacturer believes low-profile tyres, which are already used in the WEC and Formula E, have more in common with road car technology than the current 13-inch spec and would be better for marketing purposes.
John
2018-06-04 19:14:07 UTC
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Probably to keep the rich/top teams on top. The bigger your budget the easier it is to make changes. Lock the rules for say four years and the bottom teams might very well become competitive and that's just not F1.
keefy
2018-06-04 20:58:10 UTC
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On 04/06/18 19:44, bra wrote:
> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?

Why not?
>
> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its organizing body.
>
> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong" with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?

A lot of people discovered it a long time ago. But as far as I
understand FIA decided to create a rule that 13 inch wheels must be used
to stop the teams using bigger brakes. I think that was to limit the G
forces exerted of drivers though I am not certain about that.
>
> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?

No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old fart who
just dislikes change because it is change!
>
Alan Baker
2018-06-04 21:07:17 UTC
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On 2018-06-04 1:58 PM, keefy wrote:
> On 04/06/18 19:44, bra wrote:
>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>
> Why not?
>>
>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>> organizing body.
>>
>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did we
>> not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that 13-inch
>> wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>
> A lot of people discovered it a long time ago. But as far as I
> understand FIA decided to create a rule that 13 inch wheels must be used
> to stop the teams using bigger brakes. I think that was to limit the G
> forces exerted of drivers though I am not certain about that.

It can't be that, because the current brakes can lock up all four tires.

Ergo, the limiting factor in deceleration is the forces the tires can
generate.

It is not inconceivable that larger wheels with lower profile tires
might me a small increase in grip (the shorter sidewalls would allow
lower inflation pressures while maintaining sufficient structural
stiffness), but it really couldn't be a large increase.

>>
>> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am
>> offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue
>> in one given set of criteria.  Does the FIA think the drivers and
>> engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>
> No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old fart who
> just dislikes change because it is change!
>>
keefy
2018-06-05 20:52:04 UTC
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On 04/06/18 23:07, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2018-06-04 1:58 PM, keefy wrote:
>> On 04/06/18 19:44, bra wrote:
>>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>>
>> Why not?
>>>
>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>>> organizing body.
>>>
>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
>>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
>>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
>>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>>
>> A lot of people discovered it a long time ago. But as far as I
>> understand FIA decided to create a rule that 13 inch wheels must be
>> used to stop the teams using bigger brakes. I think that was to limit
>> the G forces exerted of drivers though I am not certain about that.
>
> It can't be that, because the current brakes can lock up all four tires.

But as you say that is with current brakes which are carbon. The rule to
use 13 inch wheels was brought in before carbon brakes I am fairly sure.
I cannot quote the year but from memory I would say in the 70s or 80s.
And maybe with the old steel brakes they could not lock all 4 wheels, I
don't actually know.
>
> Ergo, the limiting factor in deceleration is the forces the tires can
> generate.
>
And was there a limit on the width of tires in those days? Looking at
photos of some old F1 cars it looks like they had very wide tyres
sometimes. I also think there would have been more development of the
tyres in those days as there was competition then.

> It is not inconceivable that larger wheels with lower profile tires
> might me a small increase in grip (the shorter sidewalls would allow
> lower inflation pressures while maintaining sufficient structural
> stiffness), but it really couldn't be a large increase.
>
>>>
>>> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am
>>> offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue
>>> in one given set of criteria.  Does the FIA think the drivers and
>>> engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>>
>> No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old fart who
>> just dislikes change because it is change!
>>>
>
bra
2018-06-05 21:07:44 UTC
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On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:52:06 PM UTC-7, keefy wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
> >>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
> >>> organizing body.
> >>>
> >>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
> >>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
> >>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
> >>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
> >>
[ ---------------------------------]

> >
> And was there a limit on the width of tires in those days? Looking at
> photos of some old F1 cars it looks like they had very wide tyres
> sometimes. I also think there would have been more development of the
> tyres in those days as there was competition then.
> >>
> >> No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old fart who
> >> just dislikes change because it is change!
> >>>

"There would have been more development of the tyres " [quote]

Yes, and like every component, there is DEVELOPMENT driven by smart engineers. If G-force or braking-lock "become a problem" because of brake or tyre advances, that problem can and should be solved by team engineers, and not 'disappeared' by a rule change.

I am not an old fart; I just think that it is a pretty poor team that cannot solve technical problems without running to 'father FIA'. If my driver came and said "I can't make the car handle", I'd kick his bottom or look for another driver. If my engineers couldn't make the car fast and easier to handle, I would give them a sharp deadline and stand over them 24 hours a day.
Alan Baker
2018-06-05 21:12:27 UTC
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On 2018-06-05 2:07 PM, bra wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:52:06 PM UTC-7, keefy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by
>>>>> brilliant drivers and engineers is continually being
>>>>> 'tinkered with' by its organizing body.
>>>>>
>>>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something
>>>>> wrong" with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula
>>>>> One, why did we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who
>>>>> discovered that 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1?
>>>>> Hello?
>>>>
> [ ---------------------------------]
>
>>>
>> And was there a limit on the width of tires in those days? Looking
>> at photos of some old F1 cars it looks like they had very wide
>> tyres sometimes. I also think there would have been more
>> development of the tyres in those days as there was competition
>> then.
>>>>
>>>> No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old
>>>> fart who just dislikes change because it is change!
>>>>>
>
> "There would have been more development of the tyres " [quote]
>
> Yes, and like every component, there is DEVELOPMENT driven by smart
> engineers. If G-force or braking-lock "become a problem" because of
> brake or tyre advances, that problem can and should be solved by team
> engineers, and not 'disappeared' by a rule change.
>
> I am not an old fart; I just think that it is a pretty poor team that
> cannot solve technical problems without running to 'father FIA'. If
> my driver came and said "I can't make the car handle", I'd kick his
> bottom or look for another driver. If my engineers couldn't make the
> car fast and easier to handle, I would give them a sharp deadline and
> stand over them 24 hours a day.
>


Sadly, it is only in your imagination that this particular rule change
is being driven by inability to deal with the present situation.

13" wheels are an anachronism.
keefy
2018-06-05 21:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 05/06/18 23:07, bra wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 1:52:06 PM UTC-7, keefy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>>>>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>>>>> organizing body.
>>>>>
>>>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
>>>>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
>>>>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
>>>>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>>>>
> [ ---------------------------------]
>
>>>
>> And was there a limit on the width of tires in those days? Looking at
>> photos of some old F1 cars it looks like they had very wide tyres
>> sometimes. I also think there would have been more development of the
>> tyres in those days as there was competition then.
>>>>
>>>> No I don't FIA think that, but you are sounding like an old fart who
>>>> just dislikes change because it is change!
>>>>>
>
> "There would have been more development of the tyres " [quote]
>
> Yes, and like every component, there is DEVELOPMENT driven by smart engineers. If G-force or braking-lock "become a problem" because of brake or tyre advances, that problem can and should be solved by team engineers, and not 'disappeared' by a rule change.
>
> I am not an old fart; I just think that it is a pretty poor team that cannot solve technical problems without running to 'father FIA'.

But they have solved the problems, a long time ago.

If my driver came and said "I can't make the car handle", I'd kick his
bottom or look for another driver. If my engineers couldn't make the car
fast and easier to handle, I would give them a sharp deadline and stand
over them 24 hours a day.
>

So what is so wrong with change? Without change we would all be driving
Ford Model Ts!
bra
2018-06-05 23:47:01 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 2:34:05 PM UTC-7, keefy wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
> >>>>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
> >>>>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
> >>>>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
> >>>>
> > [ ---------------------------------]
> >
> >
> > "There would have been more development of the tyres " [quote]
> >
> > Yes, and like every component, there is DEVELOPMENT driven by smart engineers. If G-force or braking-lock "become a problem" because of brake or tyre advances, that problem can and should be solved by team engineers, and not 'disappeared' by a rule change.
> >
> > I am not an old fart; I just think that it is a pretty poor team that cannot solve technical problems without running to 'father FIA'.
>
> But they have solved the problems, a long time ago.
>> >

If the tech problems 'have been solved', why are we are change thing rules --- to create more problems?

I'd approve only one rule change: to greatly increase engine size, and no other change. Let the engineers solve the new problem. :-)

Enough from me, carry on, folks.
geoff
2018-06-06 01:04:36 UTC
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Raw Message
On 6/06/2018 11:47 AM, bra wrote:

>
> I'd approve only one rule change: to greatly increase engine size, and no other change. Let the engineers solve the new problem. :-)
>
> Enough from me, carry on, folks.
>

" Greatly increase engine size" smacks of SPS - small penis syndrome.

geoff
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-06 01:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:04:41 PM UTC-6, geoff wrote:

> small penis syndrome.

from the resident penis expert
geoff
2018-06-06 10:49:19 UTC
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On 6/06/2018 1:54 PM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:04:41 PM UTC-6, geoff wrote:
>
>> small penis syndrome.
>
> from the resident penis expert
>

For sure. Not the ring-piece expert supposedly from Texas.

geoff
Alan Baker
2018-06-05 21:11:06 UTC
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Raw Message
On 2018-06-05 1:52 PM, keefy wrote:
> On 04/06/18 23:07, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2018-06-04 1:58 PM, keefy wrote:
>>> On 04/06/18 19:44, bra wrote:
>>>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>>
>>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>>>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>>>> organizing body.
>>>>
>>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something wrong"
>>>> with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One, why did
>>>> we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who discovered that
>>>> 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>>>
>>> A lot of people discovered it a long time ago. But as far as I
>>> understand FIA decided to create a rule that 13 inch wheels must be
>>> used to stop the teams using bigger brakes. I think that was to limit
>>> the G forces exerted of drivers though I am not certain about that.
>>
>> It can't be that, because the current brakes can lock up all four tires.
>
> But as you say that is with current brakes which are carbon. The rule to
> use 13 inch wheels was brought in before carbon brakes I am fairly sure.
> I cannot quote the year but from memory I would say in the 70s or 80s.
> And maybe with the old steel brakes they could not lock all 4 wheels, I
> don't actually know.

They most certainly could.

>>
>> Ergo, the limiting factor in deceleration is the forces the tires can
>> generate.
>>
> And was there a limit on the width of tires in those days? Looking at
> photos of some old F1 cars it looks like they had very wide tyres
> sometimes. I also think there would have been more development of the
> tyres in those days as there was competition then.

There certainly was, but there was also far less downforce.

There has never been a need to regulate wheel size to protect the driver
from g forces.
~misfit~
2018-06-06 03:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Once upon a time on usenet keefy wrote:
> On 04/06/18 23:07, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2018-06-04 1:58 PM, keefy wrote:
>>> On 04/06/18 19:44, bra wrote:
>>>> Now it's 18-inch wheels. Why?
>>>
>>> Why not?
>>>>
>>>> It baffles me that a highly-competitive sport pursued by brilliant
>>>> drivers and engineers is continually being 'tinkered with' by its
>>>> organizing body.
>>>>
>>>> I must assume, in this instance, that there is now "something
>>>> wrong" with 13-inch wheels. Now, after sixty years of Formula One,
>>>> why did we not know that 13-inch wheels are "wrong"? Who
>>>> discovered that 13-inch wheels are "not right" for F1? Hello?
>>>
>>> A lot of people discovered it a long time ago. But as far as I
>>> understand FIA decided to create a rule that 13 inch wheels must be
>>> used to stop the teams using bigger brakes. I think that was to
>>> limit the G forces exerted of drivers though I am not certain about
>>> that.
>>
>> It can't be that, because the current brakes can lock up all four
>> tires.
>
> But as you say that is with current brakes which are carbon. The rule
> to use 13 inch wheels was brought in before carbon brakes I am fairly
> sure. I cannot quote the year but from memory I would say in the 70s
> or 80s. And maybe with the old steel brakes they could not lock all 4
> wheels, I don't actually know.


With the new wider tyres with more grip (and admittedly thicker discs and
pads) as well as higher speeds this year I think some races are getting
borderline on making it to the end without having to nurse the brakes.
Leclerc had a disc failure at Monaco, Liberty seem to be very knee-jerk in
their reactions to such things...

Personally if there is to be a change I think the FIA should mandate that
the rear brakes should be pre-hybrid spec. So that if the MGU-K or control
electronics goes out the car doesn't become a danger to the driver (who
let's face it will keep pushing until it fails) and others on track. The
stopping power / thermal envelope of the rears has been reduced by quite a
bit since regenerative braking became significant to save "un-needed"
weight.

Also with the 2MJ / lap cap on how much energy can be recovered via the
MGU-K on tracks with heavy braking the rear discs have a lot more work to
do. It's the same with tracks with a long lap as the 2MJ recovery cap is
per-lap so on long-lap circuits the rear discs have to do more work.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
geoff
2018-06-04 23:20:05 UTC
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Raw Message
On 5/06/2018 5:44 AM, bra wrote:

>
> I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
>

Isn't it the drivers and engineers who keep moaning about the
specifications and wanting this or that changed every while ?

geoff
bra
2018-06-04 23:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 4:20:11 PM UTC-7, geoff wrote:
> On 5/06/2018 5:44 AM, bra wrote:
>
> >
> > I adore engineering (naturally, being no engineer myself), and I am offended by the culture that will not permit competition to continue in one given set of criteria. Does the FIA think the drivers and engineers are morons incapable of dealing with the design they have?
> >
>
> Isn't it the drivers and engineers who keep moaning about the
> specifications and wanting this or that changed every while ?
>
> geoff

Geoff, I have to concede that ---- ugh. Damn, there goes my exaggerated esteem for engineers ---.
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