Discussion:
1967 karting (Pathe News)
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bra
2017-08-19 16:16:57 UTC
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From half a century ago, foresighted comments about the value of kart racing to GP aspirants.

I thought I heard Tim Brise's name (Tony B's brother), but may have heard it wrong. Anyway, it shows a 14-year old Terry Fullerton who would become Britain's greatest kart racer.

Terry recently wrote about the downside of karting success: that at big kart meets, single-seater and sports car mfrs turn up with booths to sell and to recruit kart racers who may be only 14 or 15 --- the result, Terry wrote --- being that the best rarely get to progress through an extended kart racing career. Terry famously teamed with Senna, and won 8 British, 4 European and a World championship during his 20-year kart career.

Worth reflecting on: must karting be viewed as 'merely' a nursery, in which case it will constantly lose its greatest drivers?

The 1967 film shows surprising turns of speeds, and like in most motor sport, the karts back then had to be manhandled and hustled.



Sir Tim
2017-08-19 16:55:16 UTC
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Post by bra
From half a century ago, foresighted comments about the value of kart
racing to GP aspirants.
I thought I heard Tim Brise's name (Tony B's brother), but may have heard
it wrong. Anyway, it shows a 14-year old Terry Fullerton who would
become Britain's greatest kart racer.
I think Tim was 13 at the time but, as he wangled his first kart race at
age 8 (despite the minimum age being 14) it is perfectly possible that you
heard correctly. I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable). This may have been for family reasons.
--
Sir Tim
bra
2017-08-19 17:26:20 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
I think Tim was 13 at the time but, as he wangled his first kart race at
age 8 (despite the minimum age being 14) it is perfectly possible that you
heard correctly. I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
Father Johnny Brise died on the exact (fifth) anniversary of Tony's death. He had been a kart champion and a three-time stock car champion, and once defeated the entire hill-climb field at Bouley Bay in his kart.

Here's Johnny Brise third from left (Loading Image....

The next link shows him with his sons Tim (left) and the late Tony (right). Tim and Tony looked much the same in adulthood. Tim went on to great success in rallying and in engine tuning.(http://www.kartingmagazine.com/features/historic/first-brise-john-brise-the-first-100cc-british-champion/).

Lastly, the then-revolutionary stock car that Johnny Brise built in 1959 with a Mercedes chassis, Jeep axles, Jaguar gearbox, and 7.5 litre bored/stroked Oldsmobile V-8 (here under another driver's registration number):
Loading Image...
bra
2017-08-19 17:40:55 UTC
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On Saturday, August 19, 2017 at 9:55:19 AM UTC-7, Sir Tim wrote:

I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?

Of course, there have been several pilots who took part in motor racing, but their relatively-modest driving skills were not a dangerous drawback on the ground.
Bobster
2017-08-19 18:35:57 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
The racing fraternity seems to have had a cavalier attitude towards flying way back when. Even Mosley, who was keen on on track safety, seemed to have thought it a bit of a lark.

He tells a tale about flying out of Brands Hatch with Chapman at the controls. The plane was overloaded. Ecclestone and Piquet had to stand. Chapman just managed to clear the telephone wires, but told the passengers that he often got the undercarriage tangled in phone wires. But they're no problem, really. The power lines were more of a problem.

On another occasion, after a FOCA meeting with Enzo Ferrari, Chapman and Ecclestone played a game of gradual persuasion with a pilot who didn't want to take off on a fog bound, iced up runway. It started off with Bernie suggesting they all stay seated in the plane just in case conditions improve. Then he got the pilot to start the engines. To keep the passengers warm, that's all. Then, well, you might as well taxi to the runway because the fog might lift.

At this point, Bernie nearly ruined everything. Noticing some lights coming on and people looking out of windows he joked that "they've come to see the shunt", which got the pilot agitated. Chapman was sent to calm the pilot, and did such a good job that they took off on the icy runway with Chapman calling out instrument readings whilst the pilot tried to see through the fog.

This sounds like typical Chapman. In hotels he used to deliberately overload elevators, and then have the passengers jump up and down to see if the elevator was properly engineered or not.

But it does seem a bit odd given that several of the people involved in these two episodes knew from personal experience how deadly motor racing could be.
bra
2017-08-19 18:46:35 UTC
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Post by Bobster
The racing fraternity seems to have had a cavalier attitude towards flying way back when. Even Mosley, who was keen on on track safety, seemed to have thought it a bit of a lark.
Here in coastal BC, Canada, float-plane and small-plane travel is very common. Two foresters who planned to "cruise" (assess) stands of timber in a distant valley, they had to fly in by float plane. The pilot landed on the lake, but told them to stay on board because he wanted to "do a practice" as the weather forecast was fog and rain coming in later. So the pilot set out again, stopwatch going, engine flat-out, and they headed for a mountain at the far end of the lake, and successfully cleared it.

By the end of the day the lake was socked-in but the pilot told the foresters "no problem". He set off again in zero visibility, and when the stopwatch reached its previous time he banked and climbed hard through the clouds, and they set off safely back home. Not for me!
Sir Tim
2017-08-20 11:03:40 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
The racing fraternity seems to have had a cavalier attitude towards flying way back when. Even Mosley, who was keen on on track safety, seemed to have thought it a bit of a lark.
He tells a tale about flying out of Brands Hatch with Chapman at the controls. The plane was overloaded. Ecclestone and Piquet had to stand. Chapman just managed to clear the telephone wires, but told the passengers that he often got the undercarriage tangled in phone wires. But they're no problem, really. The power lines were more of a problem.
On another occasion, after a FOCA meeting with Enzo Ferrari, Chapman and Ecclestone played a game of gradual persuasion with a pilot who didn't want to take off on a fog bound, iced up runway. It started off with Bernie suggesting they all stay seated in the plane just in case conditions improve. Then he got the pilot to start the engines. To keep the passengers warm, that's all. Then, well, you might as well taxi to the runway because the fog might lift.
At this point, Bernie nearly ruined everything. Noticing some lights coming on and people looking out of windows he joked that "they've come to see the shunt", which got the pilot agitated. Chapman was sent to calm the pilot, and did such a good job that they took off on the icy runway with Chapman calling out instrument readings whilst the pilot tried to see through the fog.
This sounds like typical Chapman. In hotels he used to deliberately overload elevators, and then have the passengers jump up and down to see if the elevator was properly engineered or not.
But it does seem a bit odd given that several of the people involved in these two episodes knew from personal experience how deadly motor racing could be.
I remember watching Chapman, with Jochen Rindt on board, landing at
Brands - it was really more of a controlled crash!
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Calum
2017-08-23 12:04:29 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
The racing fraternity seems to have had a cavalier attitude towards
flying way back when. Even Mosley, who was keen on on track safety,
seemed to have thought it a bit of a lark.
I remember watching Chapman, with Jochen Rindt on board, landing at
Brands - it was really more of a controlled crash!
More recently, of course, Colin McRae showed that in some cases, not a
lot has changed.
Sir Tim
2017-08-19 20:27:49 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be
cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other
areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
Definitely not. Here is a comment from one of them:

" I was operating into Luton Airport about the same time and we just got in
on a CAT 1 DH200ft and RVR 600m so what he was doing at Elstree just down
the road beggars belief. The whole of the South East was foggy that night I
recall unlike sometimes Luton could be foggy and others in the clear and
vice versa."
--
Sir Tim
News
2017-08-19 20:46:25 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be
cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other
areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
" I was operating into Luton Airport about the same time and we just got in
on a CAT 1 DH200ft and RVR 600m so what he was doing at Elstree just down
the road beggars belief. The whole of the South East was foggy that night I
recall unlike sometimes Luton could be foggy and others in the clear and
vice versa."
'Get-there-itis' and operating below personal minimums kills general
aviation pilots.
Sir Tim
2017-08-20 10:57:26 UTC
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Post by News
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be
cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other
areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
" I was operating into Luton Airport about the same time and we just got in
on a CAT 1 DH200ft and RVR 600m so what he was doing at Elstree just down
the road beggars belief. The whole of the South East was foggy that night I
recall unlike sometimes Luton could be foggy and others in the clear and
vice versa."
'Get-there-itis' and operating below personal minimums kills general
aviation pilots.
Also known as "pressonitis".

Hill was based at Elstree and had flown in and out of there many times
but on this occasion the weather was atrocious and it seems almost
certain that he descended below his MDH (minimum descent altitude)
before he had *positively* identified the airstrip. It has been
speculated that, because his car was at Elstree he tried to get in there
rather than divert to Luton (as the controllers expected him to do) but
of course we shall never know.

A famously cavalier pilot he should not really have been flying at all
in those conditions as he had failed to renew his instrument rating.
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Bruce Hoult
2017-08-23 12:57:03 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
Yes.

He had all the necessary training and experience. He'd failed to renew some of the licenses and ratings, but it seems he was well in practice and would have qualified to renew them had he bothered to.

Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred. 800m visibility is plenty to land in. I've certainly landed in less. In fog conditions it's only the horizontal visibility which is that bad, and only when very near to the ground. The visibility of ground features from altitude is often almost totally unimpaired.

These days with GPS it would be a doddle. Even in 1975 he was in contact with controllers who had him on radar and were giving him his location, distance from Elstree, and what direction to fly.

A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
Sir Tim
2017-08-24 07:59:26 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Sir Tim
I always felt that Tim was at least as good as his brother
Post by Sir Tim
but he never did much after Tony was killed (for whose death I hold Graham
Hill very culpable).
I believe it's very hard for a star driver with a healthy ego to be
cautious and moderate in assessing their skills and aptitudes in other
areas. Would a professional pilot have attempted what Graham Hill tried?
Yes.
He had all the necessary training and experience. He'd failed to renew
some of the licenses and ratings, but it seems he was well in practice
and would have qualified to renew them had he bothered to.
Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively
identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred. 800m
visibility is plenty to land in. I've certainly landed in less. In fog
conditions it's only the horizontal visibility which is that bad, and
only when very near to the ground. The visibility of ground features from
altitude is often almost totally unimpaired.
These days with GPS it would be a doddle. Even in 1975 he was in contact
with controllers who had him on radar and were giving him his location,
distance from Elstree, and what direction to fly.
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
--
Sir Tim
Bobster
2017-08-24 08:30:40 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
What I took from Bruce's comment is that a professional pilot could have touched down at the same site, BUT would have been more cautious.

"Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred."

I don't think he said that a professional pilot would have done has Hill did.
Sir Tim
2017-08-24 12:36:05 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
What I took from Bruce's comment is that a professional pilot could have
touched down at the same site, BUT would have been more cautious.
"Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively
identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred."
I don't think he said that a professional pilot would have done has Hill did.
Well, in answer to the question: "Would a professional pilot have attempted
what Graham Hill tried?"
Bruce wrote "yes".
--
Sir Tim
Bruce Hoult
2017-08-24 13:14:50 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
What I took from Bruce's comment is that a professional pilot could have
touched down at the same site, BUT would have been more cautious.
"Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively
identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred."
I don't think he said that a professional pilot would have done has Hill did.
Well, in answer to the question: "Would a professional pilot have attempted
what Graham Hill tried?"
Bruce wrote "yes".
Positively and visually locate the airfield while at a safe altitude and then descend to land on it: yes. Especially in a small manoeuvrable plane that can circle with less diameter than 1) the size of the airfield, and 2) the prevailing visibility.

Descend to tree top height more than 5 km from the airfield (as advised by radar) without having the airport in sight: no.


I've been (co) pilot of smallish planes (Cessna Grand Cavaran and GAF Nomad) landing in fog at night, at an approach speed of 80 - 90 knots (40 - 45 m/s). It's very common that while at 500 ft or above you can very clearly see the entire length of the runway (lights), but once you descend below 50 ft or 100 ft you can't see more than half a dozen sets of lights in front of you. Centerline lights are standardised at 30m/100ft apart. Runway edge lights can have up to 60m/200ft between them.
bra
2017-08-24 13:52:29 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
Flying-a-plane was (still is?) one of the accoutrements of being a successful man, especially businessman or sportsman (though not so much in the case of a 'successful woman'?) The statistics were probably awful.

I knew a construction/plant hire chap who had risen from a bulldozer cab to a millionaire, and after his Maseratis and a Ford GT, the next thing had to be a plane, from a local grass airstrip. Someone who went with him said their first trip in rainy weather ended with the man having no idea where they were, and by chance identifying Banbury, known from his works nearby, and then following familiar county roads until he saw the airstrip --- which he circled for a while because he was not sure about which way to land it. He did not know how to use a compass. But a very nice chap who did not crash his plane as it happens.
Bruce Hoult
2017-08-24 14:10:17 UTC
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Post by bra
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
Flying-a-plane was (still is?) one of the accoutrements of being a successful man, especially businessman or sportsman (though not so much in the case of a 'successful woman'?) The statistics were probably awful.
Yes, and especially as most of the easy to fly cheap common planes top out at 220 - 250 km/h and it takes a lot more money to buy and a lot more skill to safely fly something faster.

For a long time, that "something faster" was the plane what became known at the "Forked Tail Doctor Killer". A very good plane, but not if you're in over your skill level.

Incidentally, I was at an small airfield at Shevlino 80 km from Moscow in the weekend, checking out the gliding club there. It's a 900m long not terribly smooth or wide grass strip. At one point in the afternoon a V tail Bonanza came out of a shed and did a couple of touch-and-goes. There was also a gyrocopter flying. And a rather nice ducted fan tail rotor Eurocopter (or possibly Aerospatiale). The rest were old Cessnas and new Tecnams and Pipistrel. And half a dozen Wilga in various states of airworthiness.
Sir Tim
2017-08-24 14:29:09 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
What I took from Bruce's comment is that a professional pilot could have
touched down at the same site, BUT would have been more cautious.
"Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively
identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred."
I don't think he said that a professional pilot would have done has Hill did.
Well, in answer to the question: "Would a professional pilot have attempted
what Graham Hill tried?"
Bruce wrote "yes".
Positively and visually locate the airfield while at a safe altitude and
then descend to land on it: yes. Especially in a small manoeuvrable plane
that can circle with less diameter than 1) the size of the airfield, and
2) the prevailing visibility.
Descend to tree top height more than 5 km from the airfield (as advised
by radar) without having the airport in sight: no.
I've been (co) pilot of smallish planes (Cessna Grand Cavaran and GAF
Nomad) landing in fog at night, at an approach speed of 80 - 90 knots (40
- 45 m/s). It's very common that while at 500 ft or above you can very
clearly see the entire length of the runway (lights), but once you
descend below 50 ft or 100 ft you can't see more than half a dozen sets
of lights in front of you. Centerline lights are standardised at
30m/100ft apart. Runway edge lights can have up to 60m/200ft between them.
The full AAIB report into Graham Hill's crash is available here:

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/14-1976-piper-pa-23-250-turbo-aztec-d-n6645y-29-november-1975

It's a rather long (but interesting) read.
--
Sir Tim
Bruce Hoult
2017-08-24 15:38:56 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bruce Hoult
A professional pilot would have had little trouble.
I refer you to the comment I quoted previously which was from a
professional pilot. I remember that several pilots on PPRuNe at the time
were amazed that Hill had even attempted it.
What I took from Bruce's comment is that a professional pilot could have
touched down at the same site, BUT would have been more cautious.
"Had he remained at the safe altitude for the area until positively
identifying Elstree then the crash would not have occurred."
I don't think he said that a professional pilot would have done has Hill did.
Well, in answer to the question: "Would a professional pilot have attempted
what Graham Hill tried?"
Bruce wrote "yes".
Positively and visually locate the airfield while at a safe altitude and
then descend to land on it: yes. Especially in a small manoeuvrable plane
that can circle with less diameter than 1) the size of the airfield, and
2) the prevailing visibility.
Descend to tree top height more than 5 km from the airfield (as advised
by radar) without having the airport in sight: no.
I've been (co) pilot of smallish planes (Cessna Grand Cavaran and GAF
Nomad) landing in fog at night, at an approach speed of 80 - 90 knots (40
- 45 m/s). It's very common that while at 500 ft or above you can very
clearly see the entire length of the runway (lights), but once you
descend below 50 ft or 100 ft you can't see more than half a dozen sets
of lights in front of you. Centerline lights are standardised at
30m/100ft apart. Runway edge lights can have up to 60m/200ft between them.
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/14-1976-piper-pa-23-250-turbo-aztec-d-n6645y-29-november-1975
It's a rather long (but interesting) read.
I read it a few days ago.

Sir Tim
2017-08-19 19:30:20 UTC
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Post by bra
From half a century ago, foresighted comments about the value of kart
racing to GP aspirants.
I thought I heard Tim Brise's name (Tony B's brother), but may have heard
it wrong. Anyway, it shows a 14-year old Terry Fullerton who would
become Britain's greatest kart racer.
Difficult to deny Terry Fullerton the title of Britain's greatest kartist
although my own great hero, Mickey Allen, ran him close. The difference was
that Mickey had a fairly laid back attitude whereas Terry always paid great
attention to preparation.

Karting Magazine's list of best British kartists is:

10. John Brise
9. Lewis Hamilton
8. Jenson Button
7. Dave Buttigieg
6. Mark Litchfield
5. Dave Ferris
4. Mickey Allen
3. Mike Wilson
2. Martin Hines
1. Terry Fullerton
--
Sir Tim
bra
2017-08-19 19:42:54 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Difficult to deny Terry Fullerton the title of Britain's greatest kartist
although my own great hero, Mickey Allen, ran him close. The difference was
that Mickey had a fairly laid back attitude whereas Terry always paid great
attention to preparation.
10. John Brise
9. Lewis Hamilton
8. Jenson Button
7. Dave Buttigieg
6. Mark Litchfield
5. Dave Ferris
4. Mickey Allen
3. Mike Wilson
2. Martin Hines
1. Terry Fullerton
--
Sir Tim
Thank you for that ---- another slice of your tremendous knowledge base ;-)
Sir Tim
2017-08-20 11:37:48 UTC
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Post by bra
From half a century ago, foresighted comments about the value of kart racing to GP aspirants.
I thought I heard Tim Brise's name (Tony B's brother), but may have heard it wrong.
It sounds like "Jim Breeze" but that's not so far from "Tim Brise" and
it's not uncommon for commentators to get things wrong. Having studied
it carefully I'm pretty sure that that is Tim Brise.
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
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