Discussion:
Force India and numbers
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Bobster
2017-05-18 13:19:40 UTC
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AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.

They have released on Twitter, video footage from a recent test session which shows a revised livery with the driver abbreviation on the sharkfin, and the number is now lower down on the nose.

They had a lot of branding on the nose, so it would be interesting to now if they had to ask sponsors very nicely about the necessary rearrangements.
Bigbird
2017-05-18 13:24:09 UTC
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Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a number,
of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
Mark Jackson
2017-05-18 14:22:35 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed in
Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI after the
event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Any chief-of-staff who isn’t prepared to confiscate
Trump’s Android, delete his Twitter account, and crush
sedatives into his food will fail to produce order.
- Eric Levitz
~misfit~
2017-05-18 14:27:24 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed in
Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI after
the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front - it was
from the side. Apparently FI driver numbers could be read from the
grandstands but not from trackside - which is important for marshalls.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Mark Jackson
2017-05-18 15:29:46 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed in
Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI after
the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front - it was
from the side.
Not true according to everything I've seen, including

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129523

"Although Force India increased the size of the numbers, the FIA judged
that the positioning high on the nose were in contravention of the
directive."

"Sporting director Andy Stevenson added that Force India had checked its
number plans with the FIA beforehand, but said the team would co-operate
on meeting the governing body's request.

"'We clearly we thought we were in compliance because we showed the FIA
our intentions at the race in Sochi, and they weren't questioned,"
Stevenson told Autosport.

"'The sporting regulations say the number has to be clearly visible from
the front of the car.

"'If you were to stand in front of the car and were just about to be run
over, you would see the number!'"

And today http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129583 shows
the fix: front number moved off the horizontal service down onto the
sloped nose.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Any chief-of-staff who isn’t prepared to confiscate
Trump’s Android, delete his Twitter account, and crush
sedatives into his food will fail to produce order.
- Eric Levitz
~misfit~
2017-05-19 01:38:06 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed
in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI
after the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front
- it was from the side.
Not true according to everything I've seen, including
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129523
"Although Force India increased the size of the numbers, the FIA
judged that the positioning high on the nose were in contravention of
the directive."
"Sporting director Andy Stevenson added that Force India had checked
its number plans with the FIA beforehand, but said the team would
co-operate on meeting the governing body's request.
"'We clearly we thought we were in compliance because we showed the
FIA our intentions at the race in Sochi, and they weren't questioned,"
Stevenson told Autosport.
"'The sporting regulations say the number has to be clearly visible
from the front of the car.
"'If you were to stand in front of the car and were just about to be
run over, you would see the number!'"
And today http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129583 shows
the fix: front number moved off the horizontal service down onto the
sloped nose.
Thanks Mark, always happy to know the facts. I was going by what the
normally accurate and knowledgable Martin Brundle said during the Sky
coverage of the race. He said it was about the numbers being visible from
'ground level' and I took it to mean trackside.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-05-19 01:51:12 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed
in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI
after the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front
- it was from the side.
Not true according to everything I've seen, including
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129523
"Although Force India increased the size of the numbers, the FIA
judged that the positioning high on the nose were in contravention of
the directive."
"Sporting director Andy Stevenson added that Force India had checked
its number plans with the FIA beforehand, but said the team would
co-operate on meeting the governing body's request.
"'We clearly we thought we were in compliance because we showed the
FIA our intentions at the race in Sochi, and they weren't questioned,"
Stevenson told Autosport.
"'The sporting regulations say the number has to be clearly visible
from the front of the car.
"'If you were to stand in front of the car and were just about to be
run over, you would see the number!'"
And today http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129583 shows
the fix: front number moved off the horizontal service down onto the
sloped nose.
That last link mentions that the drivers TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) has
to be visible from the side - maybe that's where I went so very very wrong.
;)

The article also prompted a memory as I read FI were putting the TLAs on the
shark fin.... I seem to remember that the FIA proposed teams *add* a shark
fin with the drivers TLA on it several years ago and they declined as they
didn't want shark fins on their cars. (Of course I could be wrong about
exact details of this, I don't read the official pdfs and tend to go by what
certain commentators say.) It seems ironic now that all cars are running
shark fins (at least for the balance of this season).
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
D Munz
2017-05-24 11:33:55 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed
in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI
after the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front
- it was from the side.
Not true according to everything I've seen, including
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129523
"Although Force India increased the size of the numbers, the FIA
judged that the positioning high on the nose were in contravention of
the directive."
"Sporting director Andy Stevenson added that Force India had checked
its number plans with the FIA beforehand, but said the team would
co-operate on meeting the governing body's request.
"'We clearly we thought we were in compliance because we showed the
FIA our intentions at the race in Sochi, and they weren't questioned,"
Stevenson told Autosport.
"'The sporting regulations say the number has to be clearly visible
from the front of the car.
"'If you were to stand in front of the car and were just about to be
run over, you would see the number!'"
And today http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129583 shows
the fix: front number moved off the horizontal service down onto the
sloped nose.
That last link mentions that the drivers TLA (Three Letter Abbreviation) has
to be visible from the side - maybe that's where I went so very very wrong.
;)
The article also prompted a memory as I read FI were putting the TLAs on the
shark fin.... I seem to remember that the FIA proposed teams *add* a shark
fin with the drivers TLA on it several years ago and they declined as they
didn't want shark fins on their cars. (Of course I could be wrong about
exact details of this, I don't read the official pdfs and tend to go by what
certain commentators say.) It seems ironic now that all cars are running
shark fins (at least for the balance of this season).
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Still doesn't explain how Ferrari gets away with it. They just had the number on the shark fin; no TLAs to be seen.

FWIW
DLM
~misfit~
2017-05-24 11:46:35 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody
passed in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question
for FI after the event suggests that they were specifically
challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front
- it was from the side.
Not true according to everything I've seen, including
http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129523
"Although Force India increased the size of the numbers, the FIA
judged that the positioning high on the nose were in contravention
of the directive."
"Sporting director Andy Stevenson added that Force India had checked
its number plans with the FIA beforehand, but said the team would
co-operate on meeting the governing body's request.
"'We clearly we thought we were in compliance because we showed the
FIA our intentions at the race in Sochi, and they weren't
questioned," Stevenson told Autosport.
"'The sporting regulations say the number has to be clearly visible
from the front of the car.
"'If you were to stand in front of the car and were just about to be
run over, you would see the number!'"
And today http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129583
shows the fix: front number moved off the horizontal service down
onto the sloped nose.
That last link mentions that the drivers TLA (Three Letter
Abbreviation) has to be visible from the side - maybe that's where I
went so very very wrong. ;)
The article also prompted a memory as I read FI were putting the
TLAs on the shark fin.... I seem to remember that the FIA proposed
teams *add* a shark fin with the drivers TLA on it several years ago
and they declined as they didn't want shark fins on their cars. (Of
course I could be wrong about exact details of this, I don't read
the official pdfs and tend to go by what certain commentators say.)
It seems ironic now that all cars are running shark fins (at least
for the balance of this season). --
Still doesn't explain how Ferrari gets away with it. They just had
the number on the shark fin; no TLAs to be seen.
There are and always have been different rules for Ferrari. I hope Liberty
Media change that, the teams should be more equal...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
alister
2017-05-24 11:49:51 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Still doesn't explain how Ferrari gets away with it. They just had the
number on the shark fin; no TLAs to be seen.
FWIW DLM
FIA Rule 0 (Printed in white ink on white background) - rules do not
necessarily apply to red cars.
--
Alcohol, hashish, prussic acid, strychnine are weak dilutions. The surest
poison is time.
-- Emerson, "Society and Solitude"
Brian W Lawrence
2017-05-24 11:54:32 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Still doesn't explain how Ferrari gets away with it. They just had the number
on the shark fin; no TLAs to be seen.
Numbers are mandatory, TLAs are optional.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Bigbird
2017-05-24 15:51:13 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by D Munz
Still doesn't explain how Ferrari gets away with it. They just had
the number on the shark fin; no TLAs to be seen.
Numbers are mandatory, TLAs are optional.
The TLA is an option to the otherwise mandatory drivers name being
shown, 150mm high according to a letter from Charlie Whiting to the
teams.

Sporting regs
9.3 "The name of the driver must appear on the external bodywork and be
clearly legible."
Bigbird
2017-05-18 17:18:30 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed
in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI
after the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front -
it was from the side. Apparently FI driver numbers could be read from
the grandstands but not from trackside - which is important for
marshalls.
That is what the commentary gave me to understand but the articles read
differently. Hence my question regarding Red Bull who's number was in a
similar position and could not be read from ahead.
~misfit~
2017-05-19 01:41:31 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Bigbird
Post by Bobster
AIUI, Force India were called before the Beak because their car
numbers were not clearly visible from the front. They had a
number, of course, but high up where it was facing the sky.
So do RB run under different regs?
We'll know after scrutineering at the next event. Everybody passed
in Spain; the fact that the stewards took up the question for FI
after the event suggests that they were specifically challenged.
Also it was nothing to do with numbers being visible from the front -
it was from the side. Apparently FI driver numbers could be read from
the grandstands but not from trackside - which is important for
marshalls.
That is what the commentary gave me to understand but the articles
read differently.
Likewise - and so I gather now. Damn Brundle!!! ;)
Post by Bigbird
Hence my question regarding Red Bull who's number
was in a similar position and could not be read from ahead.
I thought Liberty were getting rid of this 'one rule for past champions and
another for also-rans'.... thing. Maybe that's why FI were given a
'suspended sentence'?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
bra
2017-05-24 16:03:46 UTC
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They had a lot of branding on the nose, so it ---
-- sounds like the way the Quakers were treated in the 1600s in England, or the Anabaptists in the 1500s in Germany.

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