Discussion:
Sacrificial lamb (spoiler)
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Sir Tim
2018-04-15 13:00:44 UTC
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Having lost the lead through a tactical error and a slow pit stop Ferrari
tried to slow Bottas by leaving Raikkonen out on worn tyres. Kimi got the
last laugh though ;-)
--
Sir Tim
Bobster
2018-04-16 03:14:24 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Having lost the lead through a tactical error and a slow pit stop Ferrari
tried to slow Bottas by leaving Raikkonen out on worn tyres. Kimi got the
last laugh though ;-)
--
Sir Tim
There's lots of comments like this in various places, and I think it's overdone. Vettel, who had the lead, was pitted first. Kimi was left out, sure. But it's not like Ferrari stole a win from him. Vettel and both Mercs had pitted in the preceding laps and were all faster.

If he'd been pitted one lap later, he'd still have been behind those cars, probably behind Max. He may have got out ahead of Ricciardo, more likely not as far behind, and that's the only charge against Ferrari that might stick.
larkim
2018-04-16 07:39:43 UTC
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Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.

I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
Sir Tim
2018-04-16 08:05:25 UTC
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Post by larkim
Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume
that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull
cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.
I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
It seemed perfectly clear to me at the time.
--
Sir Tim
larkim
2018-04-16 09:56:26 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by larkim
Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume
that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull
cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.
I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
It seemed perfectly clear to me at the time.
--
Sir Tim
Did you not think that Kimi was on a one stop with a potential to win
before the SC was called? That was what my living room perspective was,
that both Vettel and Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over
Kimi to prevent Kimi from holding track position when they both made their
second stops for tyres.

Accepting that you called it right, why did you not think Kimi had at least
a chance of victory based on a one stop?
Mark Jackson
2018-04-16 13:51:14 UTC
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Post by larkim
Did you not think that Kimi was on a one stop
Yes.
Post by larkim
with a potential to win before the SC was called?
No.
Post by larkim
That was what my living room perspective was, that both Vettel and
Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over Kimi to prevent
Kimi from holding track position when they both made their second
stops for tyres.
Neither the Mercedes (nor the Ferraris) were on a two-stop strategy -
their plans were soft/medium for the distance. This was clear to
many, including the Sky commentators, at the time.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
This quote is often falsely attributed to Mark Twain.
- Randall Munroe
larkim
2018-04-16 13:58:17 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Did you not think that Kimi was on a one stop
Yes.
Post by larkim
with a potential to win before the SC was called?
No.
Post by larkim
That was what my living room perspective was, that both Vettel and
Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over Kimi to prevent
Kimi from holding track position when they both made their second
stops for tyres.
Neither the Mercedes (nor the Ferraris) were on a two-stop strategy -
their plans were soft/medium for the distance. This was clear to
many, including the Sky commentators, at the time.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
This quote is often falsely attributed to Mark Twain.
- Randall Munroe
Really? I know they had to dice a fair bit due to the bunched up SC outcome
but given Vettel's pursuit of Bottas and Bottas hunting down Raikkonen, that
looked to me very much like they weren't expecting to have to use those
tyres for full race distance.

Clearly my sensors are off if I've misintepreted that. I watched Ch4 so
perhaps their commentators were out of step too but I was fairly sure they
were talking about Vet and Bot being 2 stop candidates, otherwise what they
did to Kimi was blatant sacrificing of a #2 driver, and this weekend he'd
not looked like a #2 driver for large chunks of his activities.
Sir Tim
2018-04-16 19:36:21 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Did you not think that Kimi was on a one stop
Yes.
Post by larkim
with a potential to win before the SC was called?
No.
Post by larkim
That was what my living room perspective was, that both Vettel and
Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over Kimi to prevent
Kimi from holding track position when they both made their second
stops for tyres.
Neither the Mercedes (nor the Ferraris) were on a two-stop strategy -
their plans were soft/medium for the distance. This was clear to
many, including the Sky commentators, at the time.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
This quote is often falsely attributed to Mark Twain.
- Randall Munroe
Really? I know they had to dice a fair bit due to the bunched up SC outcome
but given Vettel's pursuit of Bottas and Bottas hunting down Raikkonen, that
looked to me very much like they weren't expecting to have to use those
tyres for full race distance.
Clearly my sensors are off if I've misintepreted that. I watched Ch4 so
perhaps their commentators were out of step too but I was fairly sure they
were talking about Vet and Bot being 2 stop candidates, otherwise what they
did to Kimi was blatant sacrificing of a #2 driver
Which is what I was trying to say. This is Kimi’s last season (allegedly)
and he is expendable; Seb could be with them for several more seasons,
especially if he wins the WDC this year.
Post by larkim
and this weekend he'd
not looked like a #2 driver for large chunks of his activities.
Indeed, he’s looked very pacey all season. In the old days Enzo used to set
his drivers against each other in the belief that it improved their
performance (it didn’t) but for many years now the team has had a clear
number one, even if not contractually (“Alonso is quicker than you!”).
--
Sir Tim
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-16 23:14:49 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Which is what I was trying to say.
Ya dementia is not helping.
Go get some fresh air.
You miserable old cunt.
Mark Jackson
2018-04-16 23:57:38 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
That was what my living room perspective was, that both Vettel and
Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over Kimi to prevent
Kimi from holding track position when they both made their second
stops for tyres.
Neither the Mercedes (nor the Ferraris) were on a two-stop strategy -
their plans were soft/medium for the distance. This was clear to
many, including the Sky commentators, at the time.
Really? I know they had to dice a fair bit due to the bunched up SC outcome
but given Vettel's pursuit of Bottas and Bottas hunting down Raikkonen, that
looked to me very much like they weren't expecting to have to use those
tyres for full race distance.
According to Wolff Mercedes expected the mediums to go the distance
(although the fact that track temperatures were higher during the race
than earlier in the weekend must have given them pause.) Nobody
expected the new softs the Red Bulls later took on to be as much faster
as they turned out to be.
Post by larkim
Clearly my sensors are off if I've misintepreted that. I watched Ch4 so
perhaps their commentators were out of step too but I was fairly sure they
were talking about Vet and Bot being 2 stop candidates, otherwise what they
did to Kimi was blatant sacrificing of a #2 driver, and this weekend he'd
not looked like a #2 driver for large chunks of his activities.
As soon as Bottas jumped Vettel on the exchange of pit stops one of the
Sky commentators remarked that Ferrari had Räikkönen in position to back
Bottas up. Neither expressed approval of such a move as it developed -
e.g. "This is not why Kimi gets up every morning to work out" or
something very similar.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
This quote is often falsely attributed to Mark Twain.
- Randall Munroe
geoff
2018-04-17 05:23:51 UTC
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.
Post by Mark Jackson
According to Wolff Mercedes expected the mediums to go the distance
(although the fact that track temperatures were higher during the race
than earlier in the weekend must have given them pause.)  Nobody
expected the new softs the Red Bulls later took on to be as much faster
as they turned out to be.
Really ? I did, and the commentators I listened to did ! Yeah, the
mediums would have "gone the distance", but would never have been better
than a new tyre selected at that moment for the exact
distance/temperature/track-rubber etc which would immediately have been
and remained far superior.

Q - So what were they thinking ?
A - They weren't, well not quickly enough.

Bottas did v.well to keep a podium place.

geoff
~misfit~
2018-04-17 00:31:07 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Did you not think that Kimi was on a one stop
Yes.
Post by larkim
with a potential to win before the SC was called?
No.
Post by larkim
That was what my living room perspective was, that both Vettel and
Bottas had to build a gap more than a pit stop over Kimi to prevent
Kimi from holding track position when they both made their second
stops for tyres.
Neither the Mercedes (nor the Ferraris) were on a two-stop strategy -
their plans were soft/medium for the distance. This was clear to
many, including the Sky commentators, at the time.
Agreed.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-17 03:01:04 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Agreed.
Fuck off
Bobster
2018-04-17 05:32:21 UTC
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Post by larkim
Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.
I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
Dunno. If they were two stopping, then why not switch to softs? I think everybody was looking at a one stop at that point. Even the RBRs, who put mediums on at first and then took advantage of the SC to go to softs.
build
2018-04-19 02:49:16 UTC
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Post by larkim
Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.
I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
When they put on the Medium tyre it was bloody obvious they were going to the end, *one* stopping, if not why put on the medium?
larkim
2018-04-19 07:41:17 UTC
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Post by build
Post by larkim
Given the state of the tyres at the end, I think we can safely assume that prior to the safety car Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton and both red bull cars were two stopping with Kimi expected to try to one stop.
I think the sacrifice label is being applied retrospectively a little, no?
When they put on the Medium tyre it was bloody obvious they were going to the end, *one* stopping, if not why put on the medium?
Meh, I misread it. I was making the race more exciting than it was (pre
SC).

build
2018-04-19 02:42:47 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Having lost the lead through a tactical error and a slow pit stop Ferrari
tried to slow Bottas by leaving Raikkonen out on worn tyres. Kimi got the
last laugh though ;-)
--
Sir Tim
Yes, poetic justice.

However Merc recently did the same thing to Valtteri and I didn't hear any comments about that.
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