Discussion:
Ferrari throwing it away
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m***@gmail.com
2017-10-08 05:32:19 UTC
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Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.

Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
Ar
2017-10-08 16:28:17 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
A spark plug problem - one of the cheapest items in a car.
Geoff May
2017-10-08 16:43:09 UTC
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Post by Ar
Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
A spark plug problem - one of the cheapest items in a car.
Ferrari don't make spark plugs so you can hardly blame them for this. I
suspect all the teams are using the same plugs and if so, it could have
happened to anyone.

Cheers

Geoff.
Brian W Lawrence
2017-10-09 09:18:20 UTC
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Post by Geoff May
Post by Ar
Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
A spark plug problem - one of the cheapest items in a car.
Ferrari don't make spark plugs so you can hardly blame them for this. I
suspect all the teams are using the same plugs and if so, it could have
happened to anyone.
Ferrari use NGK plugs. AFAIK Ferrari is the only F1 team that they
supply.

<http://www.ngkntk.co.uk/index.php/motorsport/formula-one/>

Champion used to supply most F1 teams - they have 'won' over 400 GPs.
Not sure if they are still in F1, though they were up to 2013.

Also found these two articles, which might be of interest:

<http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/f1-s-power-secret>

<http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/ferraris-formula-1-jet-ignition>
John
2017-10-08 19:08:55 UTC
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F1 teams are so tight lipped that you never know what really went wrong.
Alan Baker
2017-10-08 23:13:11 UTC
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Post by John
F1 teams are so tight lipped that you never know what really went wrong.
As one of the commentators pointed out (Brundle, I think), the cars are
packaged so tightly, there's basically no way whatever fix they were
doing on the grid could have been to replace a spark plug.
~misfit~
2017-10-09 07:02:04 UTC
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Post by Ar
Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
A spark plug problem - one of the cheapest items in a car.
Unsure as yet - it could be a coil or wiring issue.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
CS
2017-10-09 12:20:31 UTC
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Are they spark plugs or the more modern individual "coil packs" as on road petrol engines.
Alan Baker
2017-10-10 03:34:48 UTC
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Post by CS
Are they spark plugs or the more modern individual "coil packs" as on road petrol engines.
The 'more modern individual "coil packs"' do not...

...I repeat, DO not...

remove the need for a spark plug.
m***@gmail.com
2017-10-10 05:29:45 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
The really annoying thing is that Ferrari have had real pace. Merc have got their cars to the finishing line, and Hamilton has been mighty in qualifying, but they haven't had the faster car. We could have had a championship that is heading for the wire, rather than Hamilton being able to secure the championship with races in hand.

Hamilton is not being complacent - and rightly so. He knows that the current situation is not indicative of pace.

It's similar to 1991 when Senna won the first four races on the trot but was complaining about the car and especially the engine. He knew that although Williams weren't getting results they had the faster car, and that once the Williams started finishing his lead was likely to erode quickly.
Dan the Man
2017-10-10 16:18:54 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
The really annoying thing is that Ferrari have had real pace. Merc have got their cars to the finishing line, and Hamilton has been mighty in qualifying, but they haven't had the faster car. We could have had a championship that is heading for the wire, rather than Hamilton being able to secure the championship with races in hand.
Hamilton is not being complacent - and rightly so. He knows that the current situation is not indicative of pace.
It's similar to 1991 when Senna won the first four races on the trot but was complaining about the car and especially the engine. He knew that although Williams weren't getting results they had the faster car, and that once the Williams started finishing his lead was likely to erode quickly.
I seem to remember that when Merc first became a force, they had occasional reliability issues, as well (hydraulics?). I would expect the Ferrari boys will go through extra pots of espresso trying to solve their problems, lest they be the next people fired.
~misfit~
2017-10-11 01:35:49 UTC
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Post by Dan the Man
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by m***@gmail.com
Under pressure they slip up with car prep. Sheesh.
Not impossible for VET to catch HAM now, but very difficult without some Merc DNFs
The really annoying thing is that Ferrari have had real pace. Merc
have got their cars to the finishing line, and Hamilton has been
mighty in qualifying, but they haven't had the faster car. We could
have had a championship that is heading for the wire, rather than
Hamilton being able to secure the championship with races in hand.
Hamilton is not being complacent - and rightly so. He knows that the
current situation is not indicative of pace.
It's similar to 1991 when Senna won the first four races on the trot
but was complaining about the car and especially the engine. He knew
that although Williams weren't getting results they had the faster
car, and that once the Williams started finishing his lead was
likely to erode quickly.
I seem to remember that when Merc first became a force, they had
occasional reliability issues, as well (hydraulics?). I would expect
the Ferrari boys will go through extra pots of espresso trying to
solve their problems, lest they be the next people fired.
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?

The trouble now is the atmosphere will go from (fairly) relaxed a couple
races ago to tense as all hell - a recipe for *even more* finger trouble.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
geoff
2017-10-11 06:48:30 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control

geoff
larkim
2017-10-11 08:53:59 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros. Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so easily
determined?
geoff
2017-10-11 10:44:51 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros. Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so easily
determined?
There is a spark-plug with a market price of E59 ?!!!

geoff
larkim
2017-10-11 11:21:35 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros. Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so easily
determined?
There is a spark-plug with a market price of E59 ?!!!
geoff
Fair retort!
Geoff May
2017-10-11 18:11:45 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's simply
'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent as they've had
the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros.  Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so easily
determined?
There is a spark-plug with a market price of E59 ?!!!
geoff
I did find this one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stens-130-220-Carded-Spark-CMR5H/dp/B01LRHDQQO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1507745260&sr=8-4&keywords=spark+plug+ngk+cmr5h&extra=special%20extension%20for%20dotty%20because%20he%20loves%20really%20short%20URLs%20and%20appears%20to%20think%20he%20is%20the%20only%20IT%20technician%20on%20the%20planet

Cheers

Geoff (the other one).
t***@gmail.com
2017-10-11 23:09:00 UTC
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Post by Geoff May
Geoff (the other one).
Both queer losers.
~misfit~
2017-10-11 23:41:10 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's
simply 'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent
as they've had the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for
most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros. Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so
easily determined?
They use a plug that's designed and manufactured to fit inside the Mahle
'jet' pre-ignition chamber. There can't be a lot of call for those as yet so
it's understandable that they'd be quite expensive.

If they *couldn't* quote the price I'd be even more concerned about how the
team's run.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-10-11 23:53:28 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's
simply 'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent
as they've had the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for
most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
They quote the spark plugs as being 59Euros. Do they really use a
commercially available sparkplug in there that has a market price so
easily determined?
They use a plug that's designed and manufactured to fit inside the
Mahle 'jet' pre-ignition chamber. There can't be a lot of call for
those as yet so it's understandable that they'd be quite expensive.
Seems they're made by NGK (you can read that if you scroll down a bit on
that previous link, past the Kubica report).
Post by ~misfit~
If they *couldn't* quote the price I'd be even more concerned about
how the team's run.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-10-12 00:09:20 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
(you can read that if you scroll down a bit on
that previous link
blow me
~misfit~
2017-10-12 00:11:39 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by ~misfit~
They use a plug that's designed and manufactured to fit inside the
Mahle 'jet' pre-ignition chamber. There can't be a lot of call for
those as yet so it's understandable that they'd be quite expensive.
Seems they're made by NGK (you can read that if you scroll down a bit
on that previous link, past the Kubica report).
"Spark plugs on the Ferrari engines have been supplied by the NGK group,
whose parent company is based in Japan. On the current breed of hybrid power
units, each spark plug has its own coil and can produce up to 125 sparks per
second. The element is designed to withstand high stress, vibrations and
temperatures but it ended up costing Vettel crucial championship points."

From:
http://en.f1i.com/magazine/magazine-technical/282353-tech-f1i-japan-gp-analysis.html
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-10-11 23:37:50 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by ~misfit~
It seems to me that, with the variety of issues they've had it's
simply 'finger trouble'. Perhaps the crew had got a bit complacent
as they've had the fastest car for a while now and the WDC lead for
most of the season?
Publicly blaming their own QC
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/20976359/sergio-marchionne-ferrari-punished-ignoring-quality-control
geoff
Thanks for the link - good to see I wasn't far from the mark. ;)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-10-12 00:13:37 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
good to see I wasn't far from the mark. ;)
fuck off

m***@gmail.com
2017-10-11 03:03:58 UTC
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Post by Dan the Man
I seem to remember that when Merc first became a force, they had occasional reliability issues, as well (hydraulics?). I would expect the Ferrari boys will go through extra pots of espresso trying to solve their problems, lest they be the next people fired.
At this end of the season, there is the pressure that arises just from knowing that you're seriously in the hunt and so everything has to be dead right. This is not unknown in sports - snatching defeat from the jaws of Victory when you're under pressure.

This is not a problem for Red Bull. They're competitive and like to race, but they're not going to win championships this year and they know it, so that particular pressure does not bear down on them.

Merc are not having an easy ride either. They haven't had the quickest car for the last three races at least, and they know it. But Ferrari's fumbles have given Merc a valuable cushion. It's no longer enough for Vettel to win every race - he needs some bad luck to go Hamilton's way now.
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