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Hey Edmund!
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Bobster
2017-05-13 09:03:25 UTC
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I just saw a MacHonda, moving without assistance, going around a corner and coming out the other side, with Alonso's helmet sticking out of the cockpit.

Thought you'd like to know.
D Munz
2017-05-13 16:54:16 UTC
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Post by Bobster
I just saw a MacHonda, moving without assistance, going around a corner and coming out the other side, with Alonso's helmet sticking out of the cockpit.
Thought you'd like to know.
There you go an jinx it. Fred got into the top ten BUT because you had to poke Edmund, Fred's car will blow up on the formation lap.

You read it here first.

FWIW
DLM
bra
2017-05-13 16:57:43 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Post by Bobster
I just saw a MacHonda, moving without assistance, going around a corner and coming out the other side, with Alonso's helmet sticking out of the cockpit.
Thought you'd like to know.
There you go an jinx it. Fred got into the top ten BUT because you had to poke Edmund, Fred's car will blow up on the formation lap.
You read it here first.
You didn't pinpoint which sector of the formation lap. Does the moving-off moment count?
Bobster
2017-05-14 04:44:53 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Post by Bobster
I just saw a MacHonda, moving without assistance, going around a corner and coming out the other side, with Alonso's helmet sticking out of the cockpit.
Thought you'd like to know.
There you go an jinx it. Fred got into the top ten BUT because you had to poke Edmund, Fred's car will blow up on the formation lap.
You read it here first.
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
Edmund
2017-05-14 08:58:22 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by D Munz
Post by Bobster
I just saw a MacHonda, moving without assistance, going around a corner
and coming out the other side, with Alonso's helmet sticking out of the
cockpit.
Thought you'd like to know.
There you go an jinx it. Fred got into the top ten BUT because you had
to poke Edmund, Fred's car will blow up on the formation lap.
You read it here first.
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an effort
deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago but
not Honda.
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
Bobster
2017-05-14 16:00:30 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an effort
deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.

Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging everything right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago but
not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
.
2017-05-14 16:14:59 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an effort
deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high motivation.
I particularly liked the way the "expert", after qualifying
7th, worked his way all the way back to 12th at the finish.
Had KR, VT and MV remained in the hunt, he would have
been 15th.
o***@airpost.net
2017-05-14 18:52:18 UTC
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Post by .
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an effort
deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high motivation.
I particularly liked the way the "expert", after qualifying
7th, worked his way all the way back to 12th at the finish.
Had KR, VT and MV remained in the hunt, he would have
been 15th.
I bet you didn't like it as much as the Mercedes team orders sacrificing Bottas race so Hamilton could catch Vettel. Without that Hamilton wouldn't have won.
Another race Hami-chump needed team orders to win.
Edmund
2017-05-15 09:56:16 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high
motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that qualifying
lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging everything
right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both Vettel and
Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were slowest in a
straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago but
not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams don't
always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.

That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that Merc
won't sit down and wait.

Edmund
larkim
2017-05-15 10:17:46 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high
motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that qualifying
lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging everything
right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both Vettel and
Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were slowest in a
straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago but
not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams don't
always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that Merc
won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're "pretty
sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Edmund
2017-05-15 11:06:56 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with
high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging
everything right and not making even the small mistakes that cost
both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were
slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed
through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil
problems. Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long
time ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams
don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that
Merc won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're "pretty
sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Well that is very nice of you, thanks.

Edmund
larkim
2017-05-15 11:27:25 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with
high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging
everything right and not making even the small mistakes that cost
both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were
slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed
through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil
problems. Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long
time ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams
don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that
Merc won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're "pretty
sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Well that is very nice of you, thanks.
Edmund
:-)

OK, in a spirit of doing this with a grin on my face rather than being
nasty and unpleasant like plenty of others on the board would do, why are
you flagging 150 HP as being missing? Seems an awfully big number in the
context of an F1 engine...
Edmund
2017-05-15 17:58:59 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with
high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners,
judging everything right and not making even the small mistakes
that cost both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the
McLarens were slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry
lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with
the oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil
problems. Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a
long time ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc
didn't have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot.
Teams don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem
is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is
very different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow
down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not
even stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given
that Merc won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're
"pretty sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Well that is very nice of you, thanks.
Edmund
OK, in a spirit of doing this with a grin on my face rather than being
nasty and unpleasant like plenty of others on the board would do, why
are you flagging 150 HP as being missing? Seems an awfully big number
in the context of an F1 engine...
It is a big number but I don't think it is that far off.
Given that Alonso cannot even follow others when he uses DRS, the power
deficiency must be huge.
I don't know what kind of HP Alonso talks about, an average over a whole
race, well maybe but not the kind of max power that Merc have.
That kind of max power is needed when it goes toe to toe for a win.

Honda is very inefficient and that adds up dramatically, less efficient
means more fuel weight on certain circuits, it means throttle down the
power even more because of the 105 kg fuel limit, it means no fully
charged batteries.
larkim
2017-05-16 13:30:13 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with
high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners,
judging everything right and not making even the small mistakes
that cost both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the
McLarens were slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry
lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with
the oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil
problems. Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a
long time ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc
didn't have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot.
Teams don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem
is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is
very different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow
down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not
even stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given
that Merc won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're
"pretty sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Well that is very nice of you, thanks.
Edmund
OK, in a spirit of doing this with a grin on my face rather than being
nasty and unpleasant like plenty of others on the board would do, why
are you flagging 150 HP as being missing? Seems an awfully big number
in the context of an F1 engine...
It is a big number but I don't think it is that far off.
Given that Alonso cannot even follow others when he uses DRS, the power
deficiency must be huge.
I don't know what kind of HP Alonso talks about, an average over a whole
race, well maybe but not the kind of max power that Merc have.
That kind of max power is needed when it goes toe to toe for a win.
Honda is very inefficient and that adds up dramatically, less efficient
means more fuel weight on certain circuits, it means throttle down the
power even more because of the 105 kg fuel limit, it means no fully
charged batteries.
Top HP is estimated as close to 1000HP this year.

I don't buy a 15% differential to the guys at the front. yes, they have
a signficant deficit, but a 150HP gap just sounds ludicrous.

At worst they are a mid-pack car, they are not back of the pack at the
moment. If they are 150HP down, then so are other cars.
Edmund
2017-05-19 10:53:33 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by larkim
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such
an effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and
with high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners,
judging everything right and not making even the small mistakes
that cost both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst
the McLarens were slowest in a straight line, he was able to
carry lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong
with the oil pressure, quite interesting after all those
earlier oil problems. Amateurs would have solved reoccurring
oil problems a long time ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc
didn't have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot.
Teams don't always instantly know what the root of a given
problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to
hear Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed
problem. That different problems arise in racing is no surprise
but that is very different from not curing one problem in more
then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a
"slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not
even stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I
am pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to
Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given
that Merc won't sit down and wait.
Edmund
So Alonso, who drives the damned thing, says 50 HP. But you're
"pretty sure" its more like 150 HP. Genius!
Well that is very nice of you, thanks.
Edmund
OK, in a spirit of doing this with a grin on my face rather than
being nasty and unpleasant like plenty of others on the board would
do, why are you flagging 150 HP as being missing? Seems an awfully
big number in the context of an F1 engine...
It is a big number but I don't think it is that far off.
Given that Alonso cannot even follow others when he uses DRS, the power
deficiency must be huge.
I don't know what kind of HP Alonso talks about, an average over a
whole race, well maybe but not the kind of max power that Merc have.
That kind of max power is needed when it goes toe to toe for a win.
Honda is very inefficient and that adds up dramatically, less efficient
means more fuel weight on certain circuits, it means throttle down the
power even more because of the 105 kg fuel limit, it means no fully
charged batteries.
Top HP is estimated as close to 1000HP this year.
Which is probably Merc only and is both the ICE and the electric motors.
Something Honda can only use for a short time and only after two? laps
charging the batteries.
Post by larkim
I don't buy a 15% differential to the guys at the front. yes, they have
a signficant deficit, but a 150HP gap just sounds ludicrous.
At worst they are a mid-pack car, they are not back of the pack at the
moment. If they are 150HP down, then so are other cars.
The McLaren chassis seems rather good to me and the position of McLaren
before the Honda PU breaks down is a result of everything, the hopeless
powerless Unit, the chassis and the drivers.
Alonso and v Doorne complaining about cars way behind them at the
beginning of a straight and still passing them before the end of that
straight without any difficulty.
That is a clear indication of missing a lot of power. To make things
worse, Alonso said he even had to save fuel!! Honda seems to have sacked
all technicians and replaced them by very stubborn and equally
incompetent managers.
A hopeless underpowered thirsty PU which results in more problems like
not being able to charge the batteries, I think 150 HP is not be that far
off.

Edmund
Brian W Lawrence
2017-05-15 10:44:12 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high
motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that qualifying
lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging everything
right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both Vettel and
Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were slowest in a
straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago but
not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams don't
always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
And yet he set the 4th fastest lap of the race - 1'23.894, a mere .301s
slower than Hamilton's best. Only HAM, VET & RIC were quicker. Granted
it was on his 64th and last lap and he was 2 laps down.

He was also 6th quickest in Sector 1, 4th in S2 & 3rd in S3.

Third in top speed at Int. 1, 2nd at I2 & 5th at Start/Finish.

He was behind Sainz only on laps 14-15. His speed improved fairly
consistently throughout the race as the fuel load reduced, even when
on the Medium tyres (laps 32-51).

Whatever the cause of the oil problem, when the marshalls lifted the
car off the circuit, most of the oil seemed to be draining out onto the
ground.
Post by Edmund
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that Merc
won't sit down and wait.
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Edmund
2017-05-15 11:22:23 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high
motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging
everything right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both
Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were
slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through
the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago
but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams
don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
And yet he set the 4th fastest lap of the race - 1'23.894, a mere .301s
slower than Hamilton's best. Only HAM, VET & RIC were quicker. Granted
it was on his 64th and last lap and he was 2 laps down.
Yes he is an amazing driver I agree.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was also 6th quickest in Sector 1, 4th in S2 & 3rd in S3.
Third in top speed at Int. 1, 2nd at I2 & 5th at Start/Finish.
Interesting and equally misleading.
4th fastest lap time didn't exactly translate is a 4th place.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was behind Sainz only on laps 14-15. His speed improved fairly
consistently throughout the race as the fuel load reduced, even when on
the Medium tyres (laps 32-51).
Maybe he carries 10 kg more fuel because that Honda thing is thirsty as
well as unreliably and underpowered.
Good thing is, he doesn't have to carry fuel for the whole race.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Whatever the cause of the oil problem, when the marshalls lifted the car
off the circuit, most of the oil seemed to be draining out onto the
ground.
Maybe the ductape was soaked and couldn't stick any longer :-)
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Edmund
Alonso said he needs at least 50 HP more to fight for a win but I am
pretty sure it is more like 150 HP he is missing compared to Merc.
That means Honda needs to find around 200 HP for next year given that
Merc won't sit down and wait.
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Bobster
2017-05-15 11:38:23 UTC
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Post by Edmund
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Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with high
motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners, judging
everything right and not making even the small mistakes that cost both
Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the McLarens were
slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots of speed through
the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with the
oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time ago
but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc didn't
have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot. Teams
don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is very
different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not even
stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
And yet he set the 4th fastest lap of the race - 1'23.894, a mere .301s
slower than Hamilton's best. Only HAM, VET & RIC were quicker. Granted
it was on his 64th and last lap and he was 2 laps down.
Yes he is an amazing driver I agree.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was also 6th quickest in Sector 1, 4th in S2 & 3rd in S3.
Third in top speed at Int. 1, 2nd at I2 & 5th at Start/Finish.
Interesting and equally misleading.
4th fastest lap time didn't exactly translate is a 4th place.
No. But it says the car has some serious pace somewhere inside it. Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact Alonso did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators remarking when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Post by Edmund
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was behind Sainz only on laps 14-15. His speed improved fairly
consistently throughout the race as the fuel load reduced, even when on
the Medium tyres (laps 32-51).
Maybe he carries 10 kg more fuel because that Honda thing is thirsty as
well as unreliably and underpowered.
Good thing is, he doesn't have to carry fuel for the whole race.
LOL. Maybe that was the mistake
Pit: Fernando, you need to save fuel
FA: Save fuel? What? There's always something. Why?
Pit: You're in danger of finishing the race.
Edmund
2017-05-15 14:51:00 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It will be a sad thing. Alonso was mighty yesterday and such an
effort deserves a better result than 'R'.
He deserves a better PU than "H".
It's a pity. He is a top notch race driver, in good form and with
high motivation. We aren't seeing much of that.
Well... OK.... we see some. SKY today had a breakdown of that
qualifying lap. It amounts to near perfection in the corners,
judging everything right and not making even the small mistakes
that cost both Vettel and Hamilton time. Consequently, whilst the
McLarens were slowest in a straight line, he was able to carry lots
of speed through the corners.
Post by Edmund
Hasewaga said he doesn't really have a clue what went wrong with
the oil pressure, quite interesting after all those earlier oil
problems.
Amateurs would have solved reoccurring oil problems a long time
ago but not Honda.
I disagree. You'll have noticed that after the last race, Merc
didn't have instant answers about why Hamilton was running so hot.
Teams don't always instantly know what the root of a given problem
is.
There is not much to disagree, Honda -according to Honda- has oil
problems from more then a year, it is absolutely ridiculous to hear
Hasegawa say he is assuming!! yet again another oil feed problem.
That different problems arise in racing is no surprise but that is
very different from not curing one problem in more then a year.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
So lets see what happens first, another exploding PU or a "slow down save fuel"
It seems the latter was the case, at some point Alonso could not
even stay in the slipstream of - I thought it was- Sainz.
And yet he set the 4th fastest lap of the race - 1'23.894, a mere
.301s slower than Hamilton's best. Only HAM, VET & RIC were quicker.
Granted it was on his 64th and last lap and he was 2 laps down.
Yes he is an amazing driver I agree.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was also 6th quickest in Sector 1, 4th in S2 & 3rd in S3.
Third in top speed at Int. 1, 2nd at I2 & 5th at Start/Finish.
Interesting and equally misleading.
4th fastest lap time didn't exactly translate is a 4th place.
No. But it says the car has some serious pace somewhere inside it.
It only shows that Alfonzie is quick ( not really quick ) under certain
conditions and for a very limited time for a number of reasons.
1 he will be out of fuel
2 he cannot charge the batteries.
3 there isn't always a car in front of him for slipstreaming that he can
follow, most cars are faster than that Honda thing even when he is using
drs.
4 he hasn't fresh tyres the whole race.
5 the PU will explode.
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact Alonso did
a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators remarking when he
did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?

Edmund
Bobster
2017-05-15 15:24:09 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact Alonso did
a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators remarking when he
did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4 seconds off his own pole time.

See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
geoff
2017-05-15 20:04:52 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact
Alonso did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators
remarking when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4
seconds off his own pole time.
See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the
race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
Yeah it's clear HAM's just a loser.

geoff
Edmund
2017-05-16 07:14:45 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact Alonso
did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators remarking
when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4 seconds
off his own pole time.
Well do you really think Ham can go 5 seconds faster in the McHonda?
Post by Bobster
See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the
race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
He did a similar thing a year ( or two ) ago, new tyres empty fuel tank,
doesn't mean McHonda can fight for a win at all.

At some point - I posted it here- Ham was something like 29 km/h faster
then Alonso and about 20km/h faster when Alonso was behind Ham and using
his DRS.
Bobster
2017-05-16 07:36:04 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact Alonso
did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators remarking
when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4 seconds
off his own pole time.
Well do you really think Ham can go 5 seconds faster in the McHonda?
In what circumstances? We know that Merc have a special mode that they use in short bursts for qualifying. I'd be surprised if other PUs don't have something similar. In quallies everything is set up for one, fast-as-possible lap.

Comparing one car's fastest race lap to another's qually lap is not comparing apples with apples.

Alonso had the 4th fastest single lap of the race.

If you think Hamilton could have been going 5 seconds faster in the race than he actually did, then here's a question: Why didn't he? Why did he chose to toodle around 5 seconds off his potential pace? Come to think of it, why did Vettel do the same?
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the
race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
He did a similar thing a year ( or two ) ago, new tyres empty fuel tank,
doesn't mean McHonda can fight for a win at all.
It doesn't, and I didn't say it did. But there is speed lurking somewhere in that car. Maybe it all came together for a brief period - batteries fully charged, good tyres, fuel load running down, clear track. That doesn't happen often enough. But Alonso was 7th in qualifying, 4th fastest single lap in the race. The car has potential.
Post by Edmund
At some point - I posted it here- Ham was something like 29 km/h faster
then Alonso and about 20km/h faster when Alonso was behind Ham and using
his DRS.
Edmund
2017-05-17 22:03:04 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact
Alonso did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators
remarking when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4
seconds off his own pole time.
Well do you really think Ham can go 5 seconds faster in the McHonda?
In what circumstances? We know that Merc have a special mode that they
use in short bursts for qualifying. I'd be surprised if other PUs don't
have something similar. In quallies everything is set up for one,
fast-as-possible lap.
Comparing one car's fastest race lap to another's qually lap is not
comparing apples with apples.
Alonso had the 4th fastest single lap of the race.
If you think Hamilton could have been going 5 seconds faster in the race
than he actually did, then here's a question: Why didn't he? Why did he
chose to toodle around 5 seconds off his potential pace? Come to think
of it, why did Vettel do the same?
Don't turn my question into your question, there is no way anyone can go
5 seconds faster in that McHonda under no circumstances.
The Merc however can regardless who is driving it. ( give or take .3 sec )
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the
race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
He did a similar thing a year ( or two ) ago, new tyres empty fuel tank,
doesn't mean McHonda can fight for a win at all.
It doesn't, and I didn't say it did. But there is speed lurking
somewhere in that car. Maybe it all came together for a brief period -
batteries fully charged, good tyres, fuel load running down, clear
track. That doesn't happen often enough. But Alonso was 7th in
qualifying, 4th fastest single lap in the race. The car has potential.
The car has but not the Powerless Unit, Alonso makes it look way better
then it is, thats all.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
At some point - I posted it here- Ham was something like 29 km/h faster
then Alonso and about 20km/h faster when Alonso was behind Ham and
using his DRS.
Edmund
Bobster
2017-05-18 02:10:00 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact
Alonso did a run of quick laps towards the end. The commentators
remarking when he did a 1:24 - a time he eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4
seconds off his own pole time.
Well do you really think Ham can go 5 seconds faster in the McHonda?
In what circumstances? We know that Merc have a special mode that they
use in short bursts for qualifying. I'd be surprised if other PUs don't
have something similar. In quallies everything is set up for one,
fast-as-possible lap.
Comparing one car's fastest race lap to another's qually lap is not
comparing apples with apples.
Alonso had the 4th fastest single lap of the race.
If you think Hamilton could have been going 5 seconds faster in the race
than he actually did, then here's a question: Why didn't he? Why did he
chose to toodle around 5 seconds off his potential pace? Come to think
of it, why did Vettel do the same?
Don't turn my question into your question, there is no way anyone can go
5 seconds faster in that McHonda under no circumstances.
I think you need to go back and re-read the few preceding posts and find the bit where ANYBODY said that Alonso could have gone five seconds faster IN THE RACE.

It is unarguable that he was about 4 seconds faster IN QUALIFYING. But it wasn't me that was comparing one driver's qually lap to another's best race lap.
Post by Edmund
The Merc however can regardless who is driving it. ( give or take .3 sec )
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
See what's already been posted, Alonso had the 4th fastest lap in the
race, about .3 off of the fastest of all.
He did a similar thing a year ( or two ) ago, new tyres empty fuel tank,
doesn't mean McHonda can fight for a win at all.
It doesn't, and I didn't say it did. But there is speed lurking
somewhere in that car. Maybe it all came together for a brief period -
batteries fully charged, good tyres, fuel load running down, clear
track. That doesn't happen often enough. But Alonso was 7th in
qualifying, 4th fastest single lap in the race. The car has potential.
The car has but not the Powerless Unit, Alonso makes it look way better
then it is, thats all.
Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
At some point - I posted it here- Ham was something like 29 km/h faster
then Alonso and about 20km/h faster when Alonso was behind Ham and
using his DRS.
Edmund
Edmund
2017-05-19 10:26:13 UTC
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Post by Edmund
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Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
Hamilton's fastest lap was also late in the race. And in fact
Alonso did a run of quick laps towards the end. The
commentators remarking when he did a 1:24 - a time he
eventually beat.
Isn't that about FIVE seconds slower than Merc did in qualifying?
Not a useful comparison. Hamilton's fastest race lap was about 4
seconds off his own pole time.
Well do you really think Ham can go 5 seconds faster in the McHonda?
In what circumstances? We know that Merc have a special mode that
they use in short bursts for qualifying. I'd be surprised if other
PUs don't have something similar. In quallies everything is set up
for one, fast-as-possible lap.
Comparing one car's fastest race lap to another's qually lap is not
comparing apples with apples.
Alonso had the 4th fastest single lap of the race.
If you think Hamilton could have been going 5 seconds faster in the
race than he actually did, then here's a question: Why didn't he? Why
did he chose to toodle around 5 seconds off his potential pace? Come
to think of it, why did Vettel do the same?
Don't turn my question into your question, there is no way anyone can
go 5 seconds faster in that McHonda under no circumstances.
I think you need to go back and re-read the few preceding posts and find
the bit where ANYBODY said that Alonso could have gone five seconds
faster IN THE RACE.
It is unarguable that he was about 4 seconds faster IN QUALIFYING. But
it wasn't me that was comparing one driver's qually lap to another's
best race lap.
Doesn't change the fact that the Merc is able to go 5 seconds faster and
the Honda can not, apart from that, why wouldn't Ham at the end of the
race fitted with new tyres not be able to approach his qualifying time?

Edmund
geoff
2017-05-19 11:38:16 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Doesn't change the fact that the Merc is able to go 5 seconds faster and
the Honda can not, apart from that, why wouldn't Ham at the end of the
race fitted with new tyres not be able to approach his qualifying time?
Edmund
Because there was no need to. New tyres ? Not *that* new.

geoff
Bobster
2017-05-20 06:00:00 UTC
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Post by Bobster
It is unarguable that he was about 4 seconds faster IN QUALIFYING. But
it wasn't me that was comparing one driver's qually lap to another's
best race lap.
Doesn't change the fact that the Merc is able to go 5 seconds faster and
the Honda can not, apart from that, why wouldn't Ham at the end of the
race fitted with new tyres not be able to approach his qualifying time?
He didn't have new tyres. He'd done over 20 laps on that set when he set his fastest lap.

Alonso did a 1:21 in quallies and got nowhere near that in the race. These cars are not as fast in a race as they are in quallies where they can run with new tyres, low fuel and with the engine turned all the way up to a point it can't sustain for lap upon lap.

Interestingly, there was one lap where Hamilton did go very fast. His out lap after his second stop when he closed the gap on Vettel. It was not apparent because he started that lap in the pit lane, so the first sector was slow, but the next two sectors were way faster than anybody else did in the race, and with a decent first sector time would have given him a race lap in the 1:21 bracket. Did he have the engine turned up for just that one lap?

Anyway, Alonso was 3 seconds quicker in qualifying than in the race. With Hamilton, for whole laps, the gap is 5 seconds.

All those cars can go faster for single laps in qualifying than they run in the race.

Nobody disputes that the Mercedes is quicker than the McHonda. It does seem that there is a lot of potential in the McHonda package, but they are not able to realise it. And, of course, Alonso is a considerable asset for McHonda right now.

It pains me a little that Alonso won't be at Monaco. He is driving fantastically well this year, albeit in a car that won't give him decent performance in return. I'm reminded a lot of his first season in F1 where he had very little chance of even scoring points, but had that Minardi in positions that made you look twice - what's THAT car doing up THERE? He had that quality from the very start and still has it now. And he's on it all the time, so relentless. He never lets up.

Anyway, Monaco was one track where the power difference might shrink a bit and we might see Alonso a bit higher up the field. Now we won't see that.
Edmund
2017-05-20 07:12:06 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
It is unarguable that he was about 4 seconds faster IN QUALIFYING.
But it wasn't me that was comparing one driver's qually lap to
another's best race lap.
Doesn't change the fact that the Merc is able to go 5 seconds faster
and the Honda can not, apart from that, why wouldn't Ham at the end of
the race fitted with new tyres not be able to approach his qualifying
time?
He didn't have new tyres. He'd done over 20 laps on that set when he set his fastest lap.
It is an hypothetical question, IF there where fresh tyres IF the fuel
tank was almost empty IF the driver has enough energy and concentration
left IF the batteries would be fully charged....
Post by Bobster
Alonso did a 1:21 in quallies and got nowhere near that in the race.
These cars are not as fast in a race as they are in quallies where they
can run with new tyres, low fuel and with the engine turned all the way
up to a point it can't sustain for lap upon lap.
Interestingly, there was one lap where Hamilton did go very fast. His
out lap after his second stop when he closed the gap on Vettel. It was
not apparent because he started that lap in the pit lane, so the first
sector was slow, but the next two sectors were way faster than anybody
else did in the race, and with a decent first sector time would have
given him a race lap in the 1:21 bracket. Did he have the engine turned
up for just that one lap?
I don't know, for some reason he haven't called me yet :-)
If it was a crucial moment in the race, he probably did.
Post by Bobster
Anyway, Alonso was 3 seconds quicker in qualifying than in the race.
With Hamilton, for whole laps, the gap is 5 seconds.
So Ham was cruising and has a lot left?
Post by Bobster
All those cars can go faster for single laps in qualifying than they run in the race.
Nobody disputes that the Mercedes is quicker than the McHonda. It does
seem that there is a lot of potential in the McHonda package, but they
are not able to realise it. And, of course, Alonso is a considerable
asset for McHonda right now.
We have different opinion, regardless of the fastest Honda race lap time,
the absolute fastest Honda lap time and acceleration -even with all
systems charged which Honda is unable to do in a race- is way off
compared with ALL other teams.
Post by Bobster
It pains me a little that Alonso won't be at Monaco. He is driving
fantastically well this year, albeit in a car that won't give him decent
performance in return. I'm reminded a lot of his first season in F1
where he had very little chance of even scoring points, but had that
Minardi in positions that made you look twice - what's THAT car doing up
THERE? He had that quality from the very start and still has it now. And
he's on it all the time, so relentless. He never lets up.
Anyway, Monaco was one track where the power difference might shrink a
bit and we might see Alonso a bit higher up the field. Now we won't see
that.
Agreed still I fully understand Alfonzie, he finished one time this
season and spent most of the free practice and qualifying time waiting
in the pits for his powerless unit to be either replaced or close the
leakages with duct tape. :-)
He wants to win and has no change at all with Honda.
Not likely he going to win the Indy500 but at least he has fun and a
challenge.

Edmund
Bobster
2017-05-20 14:32:13 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Anyway, Alonso was 3 seconds quicker in qualifying than in the race.
With Hamilton, for whole laps, the gap is 5 seconds.
So Ham was cruising and has a lot left?
Did you watch the race? It wasn't an easy win. I think he was controlling things towards the end, but that doesn't mean he was cruising. If he'd been cruising the Vettel would have been too, and why would Vettel do that and so why would Hamilton do that?
Post by Edmund
Post by Bobster
All those cars can go faster for single laps in qualifying than they run in the race.
Nobody disputes that the Mercedes is quicker than the McHonda. It does
seem that there is a lot of potential in the McHonda package, but they
are not able to realise it. And, of course, Alonso is a considerable
asset for McHonda right now.
We have different opinion, regardless of the fastest Honda race lap time,
the absolute fastest Honda lap time and acceleration -even with all
systems charged which Honda is unable to do in a race- is way off
compared with ALL other teams.
I'm not saying they have the race pace of Merc. They show flashes of something a bit better, but never seem to be able to sustain it for a race. And I think the chassis is pretty good. Alonso was very fast through the corners at Spain. Now, sure, he's good enough to do that, but the chassis has to come to the party too.
Bigbird
2017-05-15 16:57:56 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
And yet he set the 4th fastest lap of the race - 1'23.894, a mere
.301s slower than Hamilton's best. Only HAM, VET & RIC were
quicker. Granted it was on his 64th and last lap and he was 2 laps
down.
Yes he is an amazing driver I agree.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
He was also 6th quickest in Sector 1, 4th in S2 & 3rd in S3.
Third in top speed at Int. 1, 2nd at I2 & 5th at Start/Finish.
Interesting and equally misleading.
4th fastest lap time didn't exactly translate is a 4th place.
Clearly you can't enrirely blame the car. It should have been well up
in the points after qualifying 7th and 3 of the faster cars dropping
out.

7-3=?
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