Discussion:
Have Mercedes Gone Off the Rails?
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D Munz
2018-07-09 12:11:17 UTC
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Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take out Lewis. I know there were lots of discussion about this kind of "tactic" back in the Schmacher/Hill days but the risk/reward equation seems so out of balance.

I wonder if this is just more team chaos within Mercedes and they are thrashing around to cover poor strategic choices and a lack of improvement to Ferrari allowing them to be more competitive.

FWIW
DLM
Edmund
2018-07-09 12:35:57 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take out
Lewis. I know there were lots of discussion about this kind of "tactic"
back in the Schmacher/Hill days but the risk/reward equation seems so out
of balance.
Post by D Munz
I wonder if this is just more team chaos within Mercedes and they are
thrashing around to cover poor strategic choices and a lack of improvement
to Ferrari allowing them to be more competitive.
Post by D Munz
FWIW
DLM
People tent to expect from others the same as they would
do themselves.......

I do think Merc is still the best car by far, regardless
all that whining of Ham.


Edmund
Naked Fame
2018-07-09 13:14:43 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take
out Lewis.
Exactly... And I believe even less that Kimi would ever comply if
ordered to take someone out. He's really never been that kind of a
driver, not at all. Plus, unlike what some other drivers might have
done after a similar incident, Kimi immediately owned up to his mistake.

I can understand that Hamilton was all riled up yesterday, having
driven the car and all, still I think his missing the first interview
and suggesting that Ferrari did what they did was on purpose was in bad
form. However, I was much more disappointed in Toto. Toto has to me
always been a fair guy, but to me it was low for him saying this
yesterday:
"Le Castellet (French GP) was the first time we got taken out and this
is the second. It's a lot of constructor points. To put it in James
Allison's (Mercedes technical chief) words, this is either deliberate or
incompetence."

Well, Toto has now eaten up his words with:
"My statement about possibly deliberate act of Ferrari at the start of
the race was stupid."
Stupid it was. Next time it would perhaps be better to think before
making wild accusations.
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D Munz
2018-07-09 13:37:48 UTC
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Post by Naked Fame
Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take
out Lewis.
Exactly... And I believe even less that Kimi would ever comply if
ordered to take someone out. He's really never been that kind of a
driver, not at all. Plus, unlike what some other drivers might have
done after a similar incident, Kimi immediately owned up to his mistake.
I can understand that Hamilton was all riled up yesterday, having
driven the car and all, still I think his missing the first interview
and suggesting that Ferrari did what they did was on purpose was in bad
form. However, I was much more disappointed in Toto. Toto has to me
always been a fair guy, but to me it was low for him saying this
"Le Castellet (French GP) was the first time we got taken out and this
is the second. It's a lot of constructor points. To put it in James
Allison's (Mercedes technical chief) words, this is either deliberate or
incompetence."
"My statement about possibly deliberate act of Ferrari at the start of
the race was stupid."
Stupid it was. Next time it would perhaps be better to think before
making wild accusations.
--
Signature
Agree. But, is this symptomatic of a larger sense of panic within Mercedes? There has to be immense pressure to perform and by all appearances, Ferrari has stepped up where they have been slower to react.

FWIW
DLM
News
2018-07-09 13:46:45 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Post by Naked Fame
Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take
out Lewis.
Exactly... And I believe even less that Kimi would ever comply if
ordered to take someone out. He's really never been that kind of a
driver, not at all. Plus, unlike what some other drivers might have
done after a similar incident, Kimi immediately owned up to his mistake.
I can understand that Hamilton was all riled up yesterday, having
driven the car and all, still I think his missing the first interview
and suggesting that Ferrari did what they did was on purpose was in bad
form. However, I was much more disappointed in Toto. Toto has to me
always been a fair guy, but to me it was low for him saying this
"Le Castellet (French GP) was the first time we got taken out and this
is the second. It's a lot of constructor points. To put it in James
Allison's (Mercedes technical chief) words, this is either deliberate or
incompetence."
"My statement about possibly deliberate act of Ferrari at the start of
the race was stupid."
Stupid it was. Next time it would perhaps be better to think before
making wild accusations.
--
Signature
Agree. But, is this symptomatic of a larger sense of panic within Mercedes? There has to be immense pressure to perform and by all appearances, Ferrari has stepped up where they have been slower to react.
FWIW
DLM
Toto wasn't even stifling his [casual lip reading: "F*CK!"] reaction,
seeing Vettel late brake Bottas on the monitor. He's lost the swagger.
Naked Fame
2018-07-10 11:18:18 UTC
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Post by D Munz
Agree. But, is this symptomatic of a larger sense of panic within
Mercedes?
It might be.
Post by D Munz
There has to be immense pressure to perform and by all
appearances, Ferrari has stepped up where they have been slower to
react.
I believe that Ferrari's success at Silverstone might have been helped
with the unusual weather. Ferrari seems to manage relatively better
when the weather is hot, as it suprisingly was last weekend.
--
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~misfit~
2018-07-10 00:20:29 UTC
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Post by Naked Fame
Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take
out Lewis.
Exactly... And I believe even less that Kimi would ever comply if
ordered to take someone out. He's really never been that kind of a
driver, not at all. Plus, unlike what some other drivers might have
done after a similar incident, Kimi immediately owned up to his mistake.
I can understand that Hamilton was all riled up yesterday, having
driven the car and all, still I think his missing the first interview
and suggesting that Ferrari did what they did was on purpose was in
bad form. However, I was much more disappointed in Toto. Toto has to
me always been a fair guy, but to me it was low for him saying this
"Le Castellet (French GP) was the first time we got taken out and this
is the second. It's a lot of constructor points. To put it in James
Allison's (Mercedes technical chief) words, this is either deliberate
or incompetence."
"My statement about possibly deliberate act of Ferrari at the start of
the race was stupid."
Stupid it was. Next time it would perhaps be better to think before
making wild accusations.
I see so many "quotes" from teams and drivers, especially in print media and
think 'WTF?'. Then I watch the FIA press conferences and see how they get
badgered with the same leading questions over and over and then their
replies are cherry-picked andf quoted without context to impart something
they responded to as if they offered it up.

The journos were chanting about a possible Ferrari plan to take out the
Mercs long before Toto 'said' that. There are lies, damn lies and then
modern 'journalism' in the era where 'fake news' and 'alternate facts' are a
thing....

It doesn't matter if the mark retracts what they said under pressure later
as long as the publication has the original 'quote' they've won.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
build
2018-07-10 04:58:15 UTC
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Post by Naked Fame
Post by D Munz
Do they really believe that Ferrari would deliberately target their
cars? I can not imagine a scenario where someone tells Kimi to take
out Lewis.
Exactly... And I believe even less that Kimi would ever comply if
ordered to take someone out. He's really never been that kind of a
driver, not at all. Plus, unlike what some other drivers might have
done after a similar incident, Kimi immediately owned up to his mistake.
I can understand that Hamilton was all riled up yesterday, having
driven the car and all, still I think his missing the first interview
and suggesting that Ferrari did what they did was on purpose was in bad
form. However, I was much more disappointed in Toto. Toto has to me
always been a fair guy, but to me it was low for him saying this
"Le Castellet (French GP) was the first time we got taken out and this
is the second. It's a lot of constructor points. To put it in James
Allison's (Mercedes technical chief) words, this is either deliberate or
incompetence."
"My statement about possibly deliberate act of Ferrari at the start of
the race was stupid."
Stupid it was. Next time it would perhaps be better to think before
making wild accusations.
--
Signature
It's interesting that Toto's statement was not in response to badgering or a media beat-up, etc. The question asked shortly after the end of the race was simply "Racing incident or misjudgement?". Also it was disappointing for a bloke with normally big shoulders that he didn't take ownership of his comments but put them on James Allison.
Naked Fame
2018-07-10 11:19:30 UTC
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Post by build
It's interesting that Toto's statement was not in response to
badgering or a media beat-up, etc. The question asked shortly after
the end of the race was simply "Racing incident or
misjudgement?". Also it was disappointing for a bloke with normally
big shoulders that he didn't take ownership of his comments but put
them on James Allison.
Exactly.
--
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