Discussion:
VSC benefit from Hamilton
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larkim
2017-05-15 06:34:46 UTC
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How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Bigbird
2017-05-15 09:46:29 UTC
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Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time
whilst the VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when
he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when
he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?)
lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching
Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
It was about half anf half. The final sector under the VSC cost Vettel
about 4 seconds more than Hamilton.
larkim
2017-05-15 10:16:37 UTC
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Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?

Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
Lap 38 1.43.3 1.25.8

So honours even up to Lap 36, then Hamilton gains net nearly 10s as a
consequence of the pitstop rounds between 37 and 38 by virtue of Vettel's
lap 37 being slowed down by the VSC compared to Hamilton seemingly having
next to no effect as by the time he'd exited the pit lane they were back
at full racing speed.

Given the gap at the finish, might it be right to conclude that Vettel and
Ferrari had the speed on the day, but were scuppered by the VSC which
Hamilton and Mercedes maximised the use of?
geoff
2017-05-15 11:42:38 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
Lap 38 1.43.3 1.25.8
So honours even up to Lap 36, then Hamilton gains net nearly 10s as a
consequence of the pitstop rounds between 37 and 38 by virtue of Vettel's
lap 37 being slowed down by the VSC compared to Hamilton seemingly having
next to no effect as by the time he'd exited the pit lane they were back
at full racing speed.
Given the gap at the finish, might it be right to conclude that Vettel and
Ferrari had the speed on the day, but were scuppered by the VSC which
Hamilton and Mercedes maximised the use of?
Maybe Ferrari should have maximised the use of it too. We'll nevere
know, but it would have been exciting !

geoff
larkim
2017-05-15 14:15:24 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
Lap 38 1.43.3 1.25.8
So honours even up to Lap 36, then Hamilton gains net nearly 10s as a
consequence of the pitstop rounds between 37 and 38 by virtue of Vettel's
lap 37 being slowed down by the VSC compared to Hamilton seemingly having
next to no effect as by the time he'd exited the pit lane they were back
at full racing speed.
Given the gap at the finish, might it be right to conclude that Vettel and
Ferrari had the speed on the day, but were scuppered by the VSC which
Hamilton and Mercedes maximised the use of?
Maybe Ferrari should have maximised the use of it too. We'll nevere
know, but it would have been exciting !
geoff
I suppose Merc should be credited for sound strategy. Put Ham onto the
medium tyre then if there's a SC / VSC he had the option to pit for the
better tyre. Whereas Vettel's approach could retain track position, but
risked a SC / VSC forcing him to either 3 stop or put the medium on for
the last part of the race.

I'm not that partisan between Hamilton and Vettel (each impresses me from
time to time and each irritates me too), but I do think Hamilton is perhaps
getting a little too much credit for a good drive when there was a chunk
of good fortune in gaining him as much time on Vettel in that last pitstop.

Had Vettel come out on medium tyres 10s ahead of Hamilton I'm not quite as
convinced that Hamilton would have got past so easily, and perhaps his
tyres wouldn't have been so resilient at the end.

But what if? what if? what if? etc etc
Brian W Lawrence
2017-05-15 14:52:42 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was mostly
under VSC.
Post by larkim
Lap 38 1.43.3 1.25.8
So honours even up to Lap 36, then Hamilton gains net nearly 10s as a
consequence of the pitstop rounds between 37 and 38 by virtue of Vettel's
lap 37 being slowed down by the VSC compared to Hamilton seemingly having
next to no effect as by the time he'd exited the pit lane they were back
at full racing speed.
Given the gap at the finish, might it be right to conclude that Vettel and
Ferrari had the speed on the day, but were scuppered by the VSC which
Hamilton and Mercedes maximised the use of?
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
larkim
2017-05-15 15:24:06 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was mostly
under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?

I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing "VSC
period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning lasts for
before full racing speed is allowed again.

But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise Hamilton would
not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the pits. I've not read of
Vettel making an error on his in-lap (another way to lost time).

In-laps were typically about 3-4 seconds slower than a race lap (I think
the timing beam was broken before the pit lane limiter, is that right?) so
Vettel's 1:25 before the VSC to a 1:33 on his in-lap certainly suggests a
good few seconds lost somehow, and then his outlap at 1:43 was probably
compromised by having to fend of Hamilton?
Mark Jackson
2017-05-15 15:45:27 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was mostly
under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?
I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing "VSC
period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning lasts for
before full racing speed is allowed again.
But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise Hamilton would
not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the pits. I've not read of
Vettel making an error on his in-lap (another way to lost time).
"By the time Ferrari could respond the race was back under way properly.
Vettel's in-lap began while the race was still under VSC. This certainly
cost him time - around four seconds - at the start of lap 37, but that
wouldn't have made the difference had Hamilton not also taken extra
chunks out of the Ferrari by blitzing it through the second and third
sectors while Vettel headed for the pits.

"Vettel's stop at the end of lap 37 was decent enough, but the time lost
through the transition from VSC to racing again meant he emerged
side-by-side with Hamilton approaching Turn 1."

http://classicplus.autosport.com/premium/feature/7523/how-hamilton-won-a-race-he-seemed-to-have-lost/
(paywalled)
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Any chief-of-staff who isn’t prepared to confiscate
Trump’s Android, delete his Twitter account, and crush
sedatives into his food will fail to produce order.
- Eric Levitz
larkim
2017-05-15 16:04:14 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was mostly
under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?
I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing "VSC
period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning lasts for
before full racing speed is allowed again.
But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise Hamilton would
not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the pits. I've not read of
Vettel making an error on his in-lap (another way to lost time).
"By the time Ferrari could respond the race was back under way properly.
Vettel's in-lap began while the race was still under VSC. This certainly
cost him time - around four seconds - at the start of lap 37, but that
wouldn't have made the difference had Hamilton not also taken extra
chunks out of the Ferrari by blitzing it through the second and third
sectors while Vettel headed for the pits.
"Vettel's stop at the end of lap 37 was decent enough, but the time lost
through the transition from VSC to racing again meant he emerged
side-by-side with Hamilton approaching Turn 1."
Thanks Mark. I think they underestimate the VSC deficit.

On lap 35 Hamilton was 7.6s behind Vettel. And was (self evidently)
right alongside him when Vettel exited the pits. No matter how good
he is, I'd be surprised if Hamlton could find 3.6s in the last couple of
sectors. Though perhaps on cooler tyres, Vettel's inlap was compromised
doubly - by the VSC restrictions, and then by getting the car / tyres /
brakes back up to temp as part of his inlap. And of course, Hamilton had
new tyres on so might have got something of a first lap boost too.

Anyway, happy it's not just my imagination that clocked this happening.

Shame most of the mainstream press in the UK aren't reporting on this bit
of fortune quite as heavily.
geoff
2017-05-15 20:00:44 UTC
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Post by larkim
Shame most of the mainstream press in the UK aren't reporting on this bit
of fortune quite as heavily.
Seems that anybody else's gains are always attributed to good driving,
but most of HAM's gains are usually attributed to good luck, favoritism,
simply a better car, or somebody else's bad luck.

geoff
.
2017-05-15 20:55:45 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Shame most of the mainstream press in the UK aren't reporting on this bit
of fortune quite as heavily.
Seems that anybody else's gains are always attributed to good driving,
but most of HAM's gains are usually attributed to good luck, favoritism,
simply a better car, or somebody else's bad luck.
geoff
Hard not to notice that conspicuity.
larkim
2017-05-15 21:13:03 UTC
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Perhaps that's true. But in this case is self evident that Hamilton was able to get from an 8 second deficit to zero deficit simply through the impact of a VSC.

I'd just rather see the whole story rather than just a lazy narrative of "Wasn't Hamilton brilliant" which, whilst true, isn't the full picture.
geoff
2017-05-16 02:13:12 UTC
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Post by larkim
Perhaps that's true. But in this case is self evident that Hamilton was able to get from an 8 second deficit to zero deficit simply through the impact of a VSC.
I'd just rather see the whole story rather than just a lazy narrative of "Wasn't Hamilton brilliant" which, whilst true, isn't the full picture.
So he gained on both VSCs. And must have lost a deal of potential more
gain while relatively cruising maintaining the gap on the last few laps.

The 'whole story' is more than just the bits were a driver gains some
advantage.

geoff
Bobster
2017-05-16 02:59:50 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Perhaps that's true. But in this case is self evident that Hamilton was able to get from an 8 second deficit to zero deficit simply through the impact of a VSC.
I'd just rather see the whole story rather than just a lazy narrative of "Wasn't Hamilton brilliant" which, whilst true, isn't the full picture.
So he gained on both VSCs. And must have lost a deal of potential more
gain while relatively cruising maintaining the gap on the last few laps.
That's neither here nor there, he had position by that time. The question is how Vettel's lead disappeared, essentially on one lap. Was Hamilton fast when he needed to be? Yes he was. But 18 seconds in one lap? There was something else as well.
Post by geoff
The 'whole story' is more than just the bits were a driver gains some
advantage.
The whole story would also include Vettel on a charge being held up by Massa.

I don't mind that too much. Sure, there were some things that fell Hamilton's way. That's how it goes. There will be days when they fall somebody else's way and Hamilton might not get a win that arguably he could have had.
Bigbird
2017-05-16 05:42:19 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Perhaps that's true. But in this case is self evident that
Hamilton was able to get from an 8 second deficit to zero deficit
simply through the impact of a VSC.
I'd just rather see the whole story rather than just a lazy
narrative of "Wasn't Hamilton brilliant" which, whilst true,
isn't the full picture.
So he gained on both VSCs. And must have lost a deal of potential
more gain while relatively cruising maintaining the gap on the last
few laps.
That's neither here nor there, he had position by that time. The
question is how Vettel's lead disappeared, essentially on one lap.
Was Hamilton fast when he needed to be? Yes he was. But 18 seconds in
one lap? There was something else as well.
It's called a pitstop.

You are looking under the streetlight; the answer is in the shadows.
larkim
2017-05-16 05:29:55 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by larkim
Perhaps that's true. But in this case is self evident that Hamilton was able to get from an 8 second deficit to zero deficit simply through the impact of a VSC.
I'd just rather see the whole story rather than just a lazy narrative of "Wasn't Hamilton brilliant" which, whilst true, isn't the full picture.
So he gained on both VSCs. And must have lost a deal of potential more
gain while relatively cruising maintaining the gap on the last few laps.
The 'whole story' is more than just the bits were a driver gains some
advantage.
geoff
Yebbut...

The cruicual period of the race was when Hamilton, on fresh soft tyres,
was able to attack Vettel, on fresh medium tyres.

Had Hamilton had an 8s deficit to Vettel after Vettel had pitted, I'm not
so sure he would have got past as "easily" as he did, and he certainly
would have had to have taken more life out of his tyres.

I'm not upset about it - out of the two, I was rooting for Hamilton to win
this one. Just noting that one very important narrative aspect of the
race was seemingly missed by many commentators. Even Hamilton himself said
after the race that he was surprised when he came out next to Vettel.
~misfit~
2017-05-16 06:16:42 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came
in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he
was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?)
lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching
Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just
great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was
mostly under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?
I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing
"VSC period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning
lasts for before full racing speed is allowed again.
But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise
Hamilton would not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the
pits. I've not read of Vettel making an error on his in-lap
(another way to lost time).
"By the time Ferrari could respond the race was back under way
properly. Vettel's in-lap began while the race was still under VSC.
This certainly cost him time - around four seconds - at the start of
lap 37, but that wouldn't have made the difference had Hamilton not
also taken extra chunks out of the Ferrari by blitzing it through
the second and third sectors while Vettel headed for the pits.
"Vettel's stop at the end of lap 37 was decent enough, but the time
lost through the transition from VSC to racing again meant he emerged
side-by-side with Hamilton approaching Turn 1."
Thanks Mark. I think they underestimate the VSC deficit.
On lap 35 Hamilton was 7.6s behind Vettel. And was (self evidently)
right alongside him when Vettel exited the pits. No matter how good
he is, I'd be surprised if Hamlton could find 3.6s in the last couple of
sectors. Though perhaps on cooler tyres, Vettel's inlap was
compromised
doubly - by the VSC restrictions, and then by getting the car / tyres /
brakes back up to temp as part of his inlap. And of course, Hamilton had
new tyres on so might have got something of a first lap boost too.
Anyway, happy it's not just my imagination that clocked this
happening.
Shame most of the mainstream press in the UK aren't reporting on this bit
of fortune quite as heavily.
It's not fortune. Mercedes could have saved even more time by pitting
Hamilton a lap earlier under *full* VSC conditions (the pit crew was ready
for each of the two previous laps but were waiting on a call) but that would
have allowed Ferrari to respond on the next lap and largely negate the
advantage if the VSC continued. Merc took the tyres out then in again a
couple of times trying to time it just right.

Instead they waited, with one eye on the recovery crew, and called Hamilton
in just as they calculated the VSC was going to end, making it impossible
for Ferrari to respond to their strategy also under the VSC. Indeed "VSC
Ending" was on screen as Hamilton turned into the pit entry and actually
ended just as Hamilton got to the pit speed limit line so his advantage was
far less than it might have been (as he was limited to VSC speeds until he
exited the pits).

Everybody else who pitted under the VSC did so at their first opportunity.
That is not "good fortune", it's bloody great work by the team to get a jump
on Ferrari. One shouldn't confuse great tactics with good fortune.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
larkim
2017-05-16 07:16:24 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by larkim
Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by larkim
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the
VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came
in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he
was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?)
lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching
Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just
great?
Answering my own question:-
VET HAM
Lap 33 1.25.5 1.25.6
Lap 34 1.34.3 1.33.4 (first lap slowed by VSC?
Lap 35 1.59.9 2.00.7
Lap 36 2.00.7 2.01.2(p)
Lap 37 1.33.5(p) 1.41.4 (VSC cancelled early on this lap?)
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was
mostly under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?
I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing
"VSC period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning
lasts for before full racing speed is allowed again.
But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise
Hamilton would not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the
pits. I've not read of Vettel making an error on his in-lap
(another way to lost time).
"By the time Ferrari could respond the race was back under way
properly. Vettel's in-lap began while the race was still under VSC.
This certainly cost him time - around four seconds - at the start of
lap 37, but that wouldn't have made the difference had Hamilton not
also taken extra chunks out of the Ferrari by blitzing it through
the second and third sectors while Vettel headed for the pits.
"Vettel's stop at the end of lap 37 was decent enough, but the time
lost through the transition from VSC to racing again meant he emerged
side-by-side with Hamilton approaching Turn 1."
Thanks Mark. I think they underestimate the VSC deficit.
On lap 35 Hamilton was 7.6s behind Vettel. And was (self evidently)
right alongside him when Vettel exited the pits. No matter how good
he is, I'd be surprised if Hamlton could find 3.6s in the last couple of
sectors. Though perhaps on cooler tyres, Vettel's inlap was
compromised
doubly - by the VSC restrictions, and then by getting the car / tyres /
brakes back up to temp as part of his inlap. And of course, Hamilton had
new tyres on so might have got something of a first lap boost too.
Anyway, happy it's not just my imagination that clocked this
happening.
Shame most of the mainstream press in the UK aren't reporting on this bit
of fortune quite as heavily.
It's not fortune. Mercedes could have saved even more time by pitting
Hamilton a lap earlier under *full* VSC conditions (the pit crew was ready
for each of the two previous laps but were waiting on a call) but that would
have allowed Ferrari to respond on the next lap and largely negate the
advantage if the VSC continued. Merc took the tyres out then in again a
couple of times trying to time it just right.
Instead they waited, with one eye on the recovery crew, and called Hamilton
in just as they calculated the VSC was going to end, making it impossible
for Ferrari to respond to their strategy also under the VSC. Indeed "VSC
Ending" was on screen as Hamilton turned into the pit entry and actually
ended just as Hamilton got to the pit speed limit line so his advantage was
far less than it might have been (as he was limited to VSC speeds until he
exited the pits).
Everybody else who pitted under the VSC did so at their first opportunity.
That is not "good fortune", it's bloody great work by the team to get a jump
on Ferrari. One shouldn't confuse great tactics with good fortune.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
There is some good fortune in it. The very fact that there was a VSC due to
factors outside of their control was good fortune.

The timing of the ending of the VSC worked well for Hamilton, good fortune.

Had they brought in Hamilton on the preceding lap, Vettel would then have
had the chance to pit under VSC too, so I am prepared to accept that the
Merc team did make a positive choice to wait for the right moment, but had
the VSC closed 20s earlier then Hamilton might not have had the same
advantage. Good fortune, but definitely (with hindsight) good strategic
calls from Merc too, no doubt about that.
Bobster
2017-05-15 17:11:12 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Brian W Lawrence
The VSC ended before HAM's stop - end of 36 - but his in lap was mostly
under VSC.
And presumably a small proportion of Vettel's lap 37 was under VSC too?
I'm sure the on scren graphic as Hamilton was pitting was showing "VSC
period ending" (or similar). Don't know how long this warning lasts for
before full racing speed is allowed again.
As the sporting regs, the time between sending that signal and actually removing the VSC will be no less than 10 seconds and no more than 15.

I just took a butcher's at my recording. I rewound to lap 32. At that point Vettel was pulling away from Hamilton. At start of lap 36, under the VSC, the gap is 8.952 seconds. We then get a replay of the incident that bought out the VSC. Then when they cut back to live action, at the end of 36, as Hamilton is coming in, the gap is 7.8 seconds, quickly falling to 7.5. So already, under the VSC, Hamilton had taken over a second back.

In in car shots you can see Hamilton blipping the throttle, accelerating briefly and then lifting off. Maybe he did a better job of matching the set time?

Interestingly the Merc mechanics, with tyres, were in and out of the pit box. Looks like Merc were trying to stop as late as possible under the VSC.

Just before Vettel pitted, the gap was 23 seconds. That's a pit stop.

I did more rewinding and checked the pit stops. Hamilton's actual stop is longer by .1 second, and his total time in the pit lane is also longer - 22.7 to 22.3

So there's a mystery. Vettel had nearly 8 seconds when Hamilton pitted, the stop would have made it over 30, yet by the time he pits - just after the VSC is lifted - Hamilton has 7 seconds back. Then Vettel pits. Where did the time go? OK... he lost some going down the straight at VSC speed just before the VSC is lifted, but see above: he was losing before then.
Post by larkim
But there's definitely got to be something in this otherwise Hamilton would
not have been up with Vettel once Vettel left the pits. I've not read of
Vettel making an error on his in-lap (another way to lost time).
Possibly Hamilton was managing the VSC period better, but it's still a lot of time to make up. We will have to wait a good analysis like the one James Allen puts out.
Post by larkim
In-laps were typically about 3-4 seconds slower than a race lap (I think
the timing beam was broken before the pit lane limiter, is that right?) so
Vettel's 1:25 before the VSC to a 1:33 on his in-lap certainly suggests a
good few seconds lost somehow, and then his outlap at 1:43 was probably
compromised by having to fend of Hamilton?
Bobster
2017-05-15 17:42:59 UTC
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Post by Bobster
I just took a butcher's at my recording. I rewound to lap 32. At that point Vettel was pulling away from Hamilton. At start of lap 36, under the VSC, the gap is 8.952 seconds. We then get a replay of the incident that bought out the VSC. Then when they cut back to live action, at the end of 36, as Hamilton is coming in, the gap is 7.8 seconds, quickly falling to 7.5. So already, under the VSC, Hamilton had taken over a second back.
As per FIA's lap history. So all timings taken at a fixed point on the track.

Lap 34 Vet 1:34.319 Ham 1:33.458 so Ham gets nearly a second back. Gap is 6.966 (from 7.827 the lap before)

Lap 35 Vet 1:59.884 Ham 2:00.678 so Vet gets about 0.8 back. Gap is 7.76

Lap 36 Vet 2:00.702 Ham (show as in pits) 2:01.209 - that's about 0.4 back. Nobody is shown as being on the same lap as Vettel, so no gap in seconds is included.

Lap 37 Vet 1:31.543 Ham 1:41.405. More time to Vettel.

lap 38 Vet 1:43.275 Ham 1:25.820. There's 18 seconds.

Lap 39 Vet 1:25.081 Ham 1:25.107.

So we know the what, but not the why.
Bigbird
2017-05-15 21:15:09 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Bobster
I just took a butcher's at my recording. I rewound to lap 32. At
that point Vettel was pulling away from Hamilton. At start of lap
36, under the VSC, the gap is 8.952 seconds. We then get a replay
of the incident that bought out the VSC. Then when they cut back to
live action, at the end of 36, as Hamilton is coming in, the gap is
7.8 seconds, quickly falling to 7.5. So already, under the VSC,
Hamilton had taken over a second back.
As per FIA's lap history. So all timings taken at a fixed point on the track.
Lap 34 Vet 1:34.319 Ham 1:33.458 so Ham gets nearly a second back.
Gap is 6.966 (from 7.827 the lap before)
Lap 35 Vet 1:59.884 Ham 2:00.678 so Vet gets about 0.8 back. Gap is 7.76
Lap 36 Vet 2:00.702 Ham (show as in pits) 2:01.209 - that's about 0.4
back. Nobody is shown as being on the same lap as Vettel, so no gap
in seconds is included.
Lap 37 Vet 1:31.543 Ham 1:41.405. More time to Vettel.
lap 38 Vet 1:43.275 Ham 1:25.820. There's 18 seconds.
Lap 39 Vet 1:25.081 Ham 1:25.107.
So we know the what, but not the why.
You should have watched the race... or read above. Could have saved
yourself some pointless attempt analysis.

Sector times tell the story that you clearly missed.
larkim
2017-05-16 05:49:56 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Bobster
I just took a butcher's at my recording. I rewound to lap 32. At that point Vettel was pulling away from Hamilton. At start of lap 36, under the VSC, the gap is 8.952 seconds. We then get a replay of the incident that bought out the VSC. Then when they cut back to live action, at the end of 36, as Hamilton is coming in, the gap is 7.8 seconds, quickly falling to 7.5. So already, under the VSC, Hamilton had taken over a second back.
As per FIA's lap history. So all timings taken at a fixed point on the track.
Lap 34 Vet 1:34.319 Ham 1:33.458 so Ham gets nearly a second back. Gap is 6.966 (from 7.827 the lap before)
Lap 35 Vet 1:59.884 Ham 2:00.678 so Vet gets about 0.8 back. Gap is 7.76
Lap 36 Vet 2:00.702 Ham (show as in pits) 2:01.209 - that's about 0.4 back. Nobody is shown as being on the same lap as Vettel, so no gap in seconds is included.
Lap 37 Vet 1:31.543 Ham 1:41.405. More time to Vettel.
lap 38 Vet 1:43.275 Ham 1:25.820. There's 18 seconds.
Lap 39 Vet 1:25.081 Ham 1:25.107.
So we know the what, but not the why.
Last bit of input from me.

When Hamilton comes in, as you say, the gap on screen is shown as 7.759s.

A "perfect" pitlane drive through at Spain is 16.5s (i.e. driving the
length of the pitlane at limiter speed) and he takes 2.6s stopped and
records a total time in the pits of 21.722s. The commentators note that a pitstop needs a gap of 22s to complete, so by rights Hamilton should now
be 29s behind Vettel.

He exits with a gap of 23.909 to Vettel, and brings that down by a couple of seconds during the lap. Vettel spends 22.307 in the pits so loses 0.5s to
Hamilton there too.

So it's that time between Hamilton pitting and exiting where it seems that
Vettel loses a lot of time. I suspect it is the impact of the slower
pace required under the VSC (the VSC disappears almost as soon as Hamilton
crosses the pit limiter line on the way into the pits) so Vettel must be
through T1, T2, T3 by that point at least, and perhaps he delays in getting
back up to speed too?
Bobster
2017-05-16 07:39:58 UTC
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Post by larkim
So it's that time between Hamilton pitting and exiting where it seems that
Vettel loses a lot of time. I suspect it is the impact of the slower
pace required under the VSC (the VSC disappears almost as soon as Hamilton
crosses the pit limiter line on the way into the pits) so Vettel must be
through T1, T2, T3 by that point at least, and perhaps he delays in getting
back up to speed too?
Here's a thought. Earlier it was mentioned that Vettel might have lost time whilst tyres and brakes came up to temperature (and then immediately pitted - oh dear!). We didn't see much of Vettel under the VSC, but we saw quite a bit of Hamilton. He was accelerating and lifting off all the time - the lift offs kept him above the VSC time given to him. But why did he do that? Was he keeping everything warm so that when VSC was lifted he could be immediately on it?

I think part of what happened is that Hamilton managed the VSC period better.
larkim
2017-05-16 07:46:46 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
So it's that time between Hamilton pitting and exiting where it seems that
Vettel loses a lot of time. I suspect it is the impact of the slower
pace required under the VSC (the VSC disappears almost as soon as Hamilton
crosses the pit limiter line on the way into the pits) so Vettel must be
through T1, T2, T3 by that point at least, and perhaps he delays in getting
back up to speed too?
Here's a thought. Earlier it was mentioned that Vettel might have lost time whilst tyres and brakes came up to temperature (and then immediately pitted - oh dear!). We didn't see much of Vettel under the VSC, but we saw quite a bit of Hamilton. He was accelerating and lifting off all the time - the lift offs kept him above the VSC time given to him. But why did he do that? Was he keeping everything warm so that when VSC was lifted he could be immediately on it?
I think part of what happened is that Hamilton managed the VSC period better.
Entirely possible. In which case, good driving.
Bobster
2017-05-16 11:00:43 UTC
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Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
ESPN now report that Hamilton had a really monster out lap. Fastest sector times in S2 and S3. If he'd got a clean run in S1 instead of pitting, the lap time would have been in the 1:21 bracket - very, very fast, especially given that he was still fuelled for half a race distance. The S2 and S3 times were unbettered in the race.

So, they say, the combination of time made up with an in lap under VSC and then a monster out lap accounts for Vettel's lost advantage.
geoff
2017-05-16 11:07:38 UTC
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Post by Bobster
ESPN now report that Hamilton had a really monster out lap. Fastest
sector times in S2 and S3. If he'd got a clean run in S1 instead of
pitting, the lap time would have been in the 1:21 bracket - very,
very fast, especially given that he was still fuelled for half a race
distance. The S2 and S3 times were unbettered in the race.
So, they say, the combination of time made up with an in lap under
VSC and then a monster out lap accounts for Vettel's lost advantage.
Naa - he must have had lots of tows from lapped cars, justs of wind from
behind, and engaged the secret engine mode that Bottas hasn't got, and
..... etcetera.

geoff
Bobster
2017-05-16 11:42:32 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Bobster
ESPN now report that Hamilton had a really monster out lap. Fastest
sector times in S2 and S3. If he'd got a clean run in S1 instead of
pitting, the lap time would have been in the 1:21 bracket - very,
very fast, especially given that he was still fuelled for half a race
distance. The S2 and S3 times were unbettered in the race.
So, they say, the combination of time made up with an in lap under
VSC and then a monster out lap accounts for Vettel's lost advantage.
Naa - he must have had lots of tows from lapped cars, justs of wind from
behind, and engaged the secret engine mode that Bottas hasn't got, and
..... etcetera.
Since he didn't turn another lap at anywhere near that pace, it's not impossible that he did have the wick all the way up just for that out lap.
larkim
2017-05-16 11:55:13 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time whilst the VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?) lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
ESPN now report that Hamilton had a really monster out lap. Fastest sector times in S2 and S3. If he'd got a clean run in S1 instead of pitting, the lap time would have been in the 1:21 bracket - very, very fast, especially given that he was still fuelled for half a race distance. The S2 and S3 times were unbettered in the race.
So, they say, the combination of time made up with an in lap under VSC and then a monster out lap accounts for Vettel's lost advantage.
Certainly true that his outlap compares favourably.

1:41.4 was his outlap compared to 1:43.3 for Vettel. Magnussen was the only
driver to come close to that with a 1:41.6, albeit on the second to last
lap of the race.

No-one else posted a 1:42, and only Vettel and Bottas nailed a 1:43.XX out
lap.

So a second in the pitstop, two seconds in the outlap, a small handful in
the VSC delay. Stacks up with some excellent driving, excellent strategy
and a dose of good fortune.
alister
2017-05-16 12:50:34 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
How much benefit did Hamilton gain by pitting for the last time
whilst the VSC was still going? I noted that it said VSC ending when
he came in which suggested not much benefit, but was surprised when
he was so close to Vettel when he excited the pits on the next (?)
lap, implying he'd benefited from the VSC as he wasn't catching
Vettel up that much on the soft tyres. Or was his out lap just great?
ESPN now report that Hamilton had a really monster out lap. Fastest
sector times in S2 and S3. If he'd got a clean run in S1 instead of
pitting, the lap time would have been in the 1:21 bracket - very, very
fast, especially given that he was still fuelled for half a race
distance. The S2 and S3 times were unbettered in the race.
So, they say, the combination of time made up with an in lap under VSC
and then a monster out lap accounts for Vettel's lost advantage.
Certainly true that his outlap compares favourably.
1:41.4 was his outlap compared to 1:43.3 for Vettel. Magnussen was the
only driver to come close to that with a 1:41.6, albeit on the second to
last lap of the race.
No-one else posted a 1:42, and only Vettel and Bottas nailed a 1:43.XX
out lap.
So a second in the pitstop, two seconds in the outlap, a small handful
in the VSC delay. Stacks up with some excellent driving, excellent
strategy and a dose of good fortune.
which are the usual parameters that ever driver requires for a Win
--
Authors (and perhaps columnists) eventually rise to the top of whatever
depths they were once able to plumb.
-- Stanley Kaufman
larkim
2017-05-16 13:25:13 UTC
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Post by alister
Post by larkim
So a second in the pitstop, two seconds in the outlap, a small handful
in the VSC delay. Stacks up with some excellent driving, excellent
strategy and a dose of good fortune.
which are the usual parameters that ever driver requires for a Win
Indeed so.

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