The day the championship evaporated

Very little hope for Lewis now.

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Bigbird

2014-07-26 13:54:20 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Mercedes have a different script to yours is all. ;)

Bobster

2014-07-26 14:12:47 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

Sir Tim

2014-07-26 17:23:51 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton fan I
will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of the double
points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)

In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points their
achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of the fans.

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Stephen Thomas Cole

2014-07-26 18:04:22 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton fan I
will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of the double
points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)

It'd be a healthy does of good luck to counterbalance all the bad he's had
this year!!!

Post by Sir Tim
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points their
achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of the fans.

Agreed. If it's decided by the double points it'll be hard to consider it
as anything other than a tainted championship.

--
Stephen Thomas Cole // Sent from my iPhone

~misfit~

2014-07-27 01:05:22 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton
fan I will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of
the double points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points
their achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of
the fans.

Slightly? Hugely from my PoV. I would consider it being robbed of the just
result of a great battle. <shrug>

--
</Shaun>.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

Bobster

2014-07-27 04:55:06 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton fan I
will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of the double
points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points their
achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of the fans.

As I've said, there's all sorts of ramifications. This season and the last
I decided to be a Marussia supporter. I was very happy when they got points
at Monaco.

So consider this. Marussia could pick up a 10th place along the way and
have 3 points. But if Caterham can pick up a 9th at Bahrain then that would
be their only points of the season, and Marussia would have the better
finishing record (a ninth and a tenth against a sole ninth) but Caterham
would be placed higher in WCC.

But the rules is the rules. We've all seen soccer matches where A is the
better team over 90 minutes (more possession, more shots at goal etc) but
B wins on the penalty shoot out.

As I've pointed out previously we used to have the X best finishes rule
which meant that a driver could have more points over the season but
finish behind another because he had to start discarding points. Hands up
if you think Senna's WDC in '88 was tarnished because Prost scored more
points over the season?

Bigbird

2014-07-27 09:18:58 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a
Hamilton fan I will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a
result of the double points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points
their achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes
of the fans.

We are not talking about a tie break.

In football each goal is only worth one goal; a goal scored in the last
ten minutes isn't worth double.

This is a case where a deserving winner could be demoted to second or
worse simply by imposition of inconsistent scoring, with the added
complication that the double points may affect strategy so it may not
be as clear as that.

If any driver goes to Abu Dhabi (not Bahrain) over 25 points clear and
loses the championship which supporters are going to be truly happy? It
is not the kind of controversy that is good for the sport.

Bobster

2014-07-27 15:43:40 UTC

Post by Bigbird
We are not talking about a tie break.
In football each goal is only worth one goal; a goal scored in the last
ten minutes isn't worth double.

Yes. I can't make the analogy stick, thus it is a false one.

Post by Bigbird
This is a case where a deserving winner could be demoted to second or
worse simply by imposition of inconsistent scoring, with the added
complication that the double points may affect strategy so it may not
be as clear as that.
If any driver goes to Abu Dhabi (not Bahrain) over 25 points clear and
loses the championship which supporters are going to be truly happy? It
is not the kind of controversy that is good for the sport.

I'm not sure it's as serious as we might think. As I've argued already in
other threads Prost scored more points than Senna in 1988 yet Senna won
the WDC. The sun still rose the next day.

Bigbird

2014-07-27 17:43:04 UTC

Post by Bigbird
We are not talking about a tie break.
In football each goal is only worth one goal; a goal scored in the
last ten minutes isn't worth double.

Yes. I can't make the analogy stick, thus it is a false one.

Post by Bigbird
This is a case where a deserving winner could be demoted to second
or worse simply by imposition of inconsistent scoring, with the
added complication that the double points may affect strategy so it
may not be as clear as that.
If any driver goes to Abu Dhabi (not Bahrain) over 25 points clear
and loses the championship which supporters are going to be truly
happy? It is not the kind of controversy that is good for the sport.

I'm not sure it's as serious as we might think. As I've argued
already in other threads Prost scored more points than Senna in 1988
yet Senna won the WDC. The sun still rose the next day.

Well I never thought it might be the end of the world. Just F1 shooting
itself in the foot. Not even unusual nowadays.

build

2014-07-27 17:52:20 UTC

Well I never thought it might be the end of the world. Just shooting
myself in the foot. Not even unusual nowadays.

Apart from the pain what does that feel like?

Bigbird

2014-07-27 18:27:32 UTC

Post by build

Well I never thought it might be the end of the world. Just shooting
myself in the foot. Not even unusual nowadays.

Apart from the pain what does that feel like?

Dunno. I'm sure that even if I tried to shoot myself in the foot you
would get your fat head in the way. :)

Lord Charles

2014-07-27 19:07:17 UTC

Post by Bigbird

Post by build

Well I never thought it might be the end of the world. Just shooting
myself in the foot. Not even unusual nowadays.

Apart from the pain what does that feel like?

Dunno. I'm sure that even if I tried to shoot myself in the foot you
would get your fat head in the way. :)

How long has he been hanging off your clinkers ?

Mike Fleming

2014-07-27 18:09:53 UTC

Post by Bobster
But the rules is the rules. We've all seen soccer matches where A is the
better team over 90 minutes (more possession, more shots at goal etc) but
B wins on the penalty shoot out.

This is more akin to having goals coult twice if they're scored in the
last five minutes.

Post by Bobster
As I've pointed out previously we used to have the X best finishes rule
which meant that a driver could have more points over the season but
finish behind another because he had to start discarding points. Hands up
if you think Senna's WDC in '88 was tarnished because Prost scored more
points over the season?

I thought the discarding results system was stupid but it operated
across all the races in a season. This operates on an arbitrarily
selected race. Why not have a joker system[1], where a team could play
their joker and nominate any one race to score double points?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_knockout

--
Mike Fleming

Oliver Crawford

2014-07-29 09:16:56 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton
fan I will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of
the double points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points
their achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of
the fans.

After what Lewis has been through the last few races, I suspect that if he
grabs the championship in the last race, I suspect that it may go down in
the history books as one of the most thrilling wins.

a425couple

2014-07-26 19:11:25 UTC

"Sir Tim" <***@brooklands.com> wrote in message...
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Come on Sir Tim, get a grip on yourself and put it
into perspective.
This is just one race of 19.
8 races after this weekend.
Any one driver could still win 225 points!
Plenty of time for tide to ebb and flow several times.
Stiff upper lip and all that!

Lord Charles

2014-07-26 19:35:21 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

8 more opportunities for some dick to stick a hammer in the works.

Anyone going to argue that this event wasn't down to piss poor
engineering competence - aka finger trouble.

Oh - BTW Brembo are blaming Mercedes for the fucked brakes last week.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement

"There is currently no clear evidence of a single cause of failure and
our continuing rigorous analysis will take into account multiple factors
which could have contributed to the incident."

Translation - finger trouble

Bigbird

2014-07-26 20:05:25 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement

Post by Lord Charles
"There is currently no clear evidence of a single cause of failure
and our continuing rigorous analysis will take into account multiple
factors which could have contributed to the incident."
Translation - finger trouble

More, a bi-assed interpretation.

larkim

2014-07-26 20:12:06 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement

More, a bi-assed interpretation.

It would be a shame if the championship were decided by a significant imbalance in luck in the engineering side of the Mercedes garage. Hamilton has got to be asking some questions about the quality on his side of the mechanic team.

Edmund

2014-07-27 08:38:41 UTC

Post by larkim

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-

statement

Post by larkim

More, a bi-assed interpretation.

It would be a shame if the championship were decided by a significant
imbalance in luck in the engineering side of the Mercedes garage.
Hamilton has got to be asking some questions about the quality on his
side of the mechanic team.

There may be not so much luck involved at all but walking on the edge
more then anything.
A few races ago shortly before lewis his rear brakes/energy recovering
system failed, he was told to shift his brake balance to the rear in
order to generate maximum electric energy for attacks.

Edmund

Lord Charles

2014-07-26 22:45:25 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement

More, a bi-assed interpretation.

There are so many lies around F1, it's sometimes better to look at what
hasn't been said. Brembo haven't admitted the fault lies with them.
Mercedes haven't blamed Brembo. 4 + 8 = Finger trouble.

I can't be arsed to look it up, but Mercedes had similar problems last
year and all the time when MS was with them. Apparently, MS had more
problems than Britney.

Bigbird

2014-07-27 09:05:16 UTC

Post by Bigbird

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement

Post by Bigbird

Post by Lord Charles
"There is currently no clear evidence of a single cause of failure
and our continuing rigorous analysis will take into account
multiple factors which could have contributed to the incident."
Translation - finger trouble

More, a bi-assed interpretation.

There are so many lies around F1, it's sometimes better to look at
what hasn't been said. Brembo haven't admitted the fault lies with
them. Mercedes haven't blamed Brembo. 4 + 8 = Finger trouble.
I can't be arsed to look it up, but Mercedes had similar problems
last year and all the time when MS was with them. Apparently, MS had
more problems than Britney.

Just saying it's a bit of a non-sequitur chosen to reach the conclusion
you want.

Other teams have had trouble with their Brembo discs. Now it maybe for
instance that they are being run outside spec. Reporting that would not
do either party any favours. Brembo for supplying brakes that might be
seen as being unable to take the same punishment as their competitiors.
The team for being unable to manage their brakes.

Bobster

2014-07-27 06:40:59 UTC

Post by Lord Charles
Oh - BTW Brembo are blaming Mercedes for the fucked brakes last week.
http://www.pitpass.com/52150/Brembo-and-Mercedes-issue-a-joint-statement
"There is currently no clear evidence of a single cause of failure and
our continuing rigorous analysis will take into account multiple factors
which could have contributed to the incident."

How is that Brembo blaming Merc? They're saying "no conclusion" or "nobody
knows".

Besides, it's a joint statement, and the first part of that report
puts things in a different context: "Following the accident experienced by
Lewis Hamilton last Saturday at Hockenheim, Brembo and Mercedes AMG Petronas
F1 Team have been working hand in hand to analyse and identify the causes of
the failure."

So "we" is the two parties working together.

Sir Tim

2014-07-26 22:13:48 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Come on Sir Tim, get a grip on yourself and put it into perspective. This
is just one race of 19. 8 races after this weekend. Any one driver could
still win 225 points! Plenty of time for tide to ebb and flow several
times. Stiff upper lip and all that!

:-)
Wish I thought you were right a425couple (or may I call you 425?) but I
fear that Nico has only to keep his head, drive sensibly (which he is good
at doing) and have reasonable luck to become WDC.

I have always thought Hamilton marginally the quicker of the two but his
pit stops have not been as good as Rosberg's, he himself has made mistakes
and, of course, he has had atrociously bad luck. I can't see that changing
any time soon.

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Lord Charles

2014-07-26 22:35:21 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Come on Sir Tim, get a grip on yourself and put it into perspective. This
is just one race of 19. 8 races after this weekend. Any one driver could
still win 225 points! Plenty of time for tide to ebb and flow several
times. Stiff upper lip and all that!

:-)
Wish I thought you were right a425couple (or may I call you 425?) but I
fear that Nico has only to keep his head, drive sensibly (which he is good
at doing) and have reasonable luck to become WDC.
I have always thought Hamilton marginally the quicker of the two but his
pit stops have not been as good as Rosberg's, he himself has made mistakes
and, of course, he has had atrociously bad luck. I can't see that changing
any time soon.

It takes a lot of work to regain 5 seconds at every race, it comes as no
surprise LH has to work hard to keep up with Britney.

Apparently, when Britney had a poor qualifying and started in 4th, it
took him 17 laps to get up to 2nd. LH went from the back to 3rd at a
much quicker pace last week. That despite shite pit stops. I have no
trouble in believing LH is a fuck sight faster than Britney ever will
be. Wait until next year, when the other teams will have caught up,
Britney will revert to his usual position - around 5th place.

Bobster

2014-07-27 04:59:24 UTC

Post by Lord Charles
Apparently, when Britney had a poor qualifying and started in 4th, it
took him 17 laps to get up to 2nd. LH went from the back to 3rd at a
much quicker pace last week.

Yeah, but it's always like that. If you'd have drawn a graph of Lewis's
climb through the field you'd probably see him getting past the Saubers,
Marussias and Caterhams a lot quicker than he got past the McLarens and
the Red Bulls. The higher you get in the field, the less the speed
differential. So in the example you give Rosberg would have been fighting
with relatively faster cars from the word go.

a425couple

2014-07-26 22:52:12 UTC

Post by a425couple
Re: The day the championship evaporated

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Come on Sir Tim, get a grip on yourself and put it into perspective. This
is just one race of 19. 8 races after this weekend. Any one driver could
still win 225 points! Plenty of time for tide to ebb and flow several
times. Stiff upper lip and all that!

:-)
Wish I thought you were right a425couple (or may I call you 425?)

Yeah, pretty much anything you wish.
Just, PLEASE do not say you can't be arsed to see what
I actually said, before you make an allegation against what
you felt I might have actually said.

Post by Sir Tim
but I
fear that Nico has only to keep his head, drive sensibly (which he is good
at doing) and have reasonable luck to become WDC.
I have always thought Hamilton marginally the quicker of the two but his
pit stops have not been as good as Rosberg's, he himself has made mistakes
and, of course, he has had atrociously bad luck. I can't see that changing
any time soon.

Luck, fate, and situations can turn in a heatbeat (and often have).
Do try to recall in 2012 when several here were posting that
they were sure Alonso had it "wrapped up"!
His 34 point lead over Webber, 44 points over Vettel,
went away quite quickly.

And Rosberg "keeping his head" may reduce, but will
certainly not eliminate mechanical problems, and
nothing can protect from someone near the rear totally
goofing up breaking for 1st turn.

Sir Tim

2014-07-27 00:15:53 UTC

Post by a425couple

Post by a425couple
Come on Sir Tim, get a grip on yourself and put it into perspective. This
is just one race of 19. 8 races after this weekend. Any one driver could
still win 225 points! Plenty of time for tide to ebb and flow several
times. Stiff upper lip and all that!

:-)
Wish I thought you were right a425couple (or may I call you 425?)

Yeah, pretty much anything you wish.

I was attempting (obviously unsuccessfully) to be jocular.

Post by a425couple
Just, PLEASE do not say you can't be arsed to see what
I actually said, before you make an allegation against what
you felt I might have actually said.

Eh! Sorry but the above sentence seems complete gibberish to me. I am not
aware that I have made any "allegation" against you - I thought we were
merely having a friendly exchange of views as to Hamilton's chances of
becoming WDC. I was pessimistic; you less so. "Can't be arsed" is not an
expression that I use, perhaps you are confusing me with another
contributor to this thread?

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

Bobster

2014-07-27 04:48:23 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Wish I thought you were right a425couple (or may I call you 425?) but I
fear that Nico has only to keep his head, drive sensibly (which he is good
at doing) and have reasonable luck to become WDC.

Unless the competition starts catching up and Merc don't have the car
advantage they have now. Not that I think Nico isn't quick (see below)
but right now all he has to do to get a podium is not screw up.

Post by Sir Tim
I have always thought Hamilton marginally the quicker of the two but his
pit stops have not been as good as Rosberg's, he himself has made mistakes
and, of course, he has had atrociously bad luck. I can't see that changing
any time soon.

It's hard to know how fast anybody in F1 is other than by comparison against
team mates. I recall that towards the end of Rosberg's first season with
Merc some journo said to Rosberg that he'd been fortunate that the real
Michael Schumacher hadn't shown up. Rosberg's reply: "Who says the real
Michael Schumacher didn't show up?" He believes in his own speed. And I think
you're right - he's not a lot slower than Hamilton. Which is to say that he's
pretty quick.

Ham's pit stops. I think this an area where the driver can make a difference.
Schumacher was very good at pit stops. The teams mark out the pit front and
the crew are pre-positioned against those marks. If you don't stop the car
exactly on the marks the crew have to make a shift and that costs time.
Schumacher was known for his accuracy in hitting the marks. Typically he
paid attention to that detail.

I don't say it happens every time, but I kept an eye on the Merc pit stops
that were shown at Hockenheim, and at least twice Hamilton overshot the
marks just a little. Just a little, but that little may mean the guys with
the wheels have to move slightly, the jack guys have to compensate and all
that adds up to a less than optimal pit stop.

Post by Sir Tim
--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

~misfit~

2014-07-27 10:23:08 UTC

Post by Bobster
Ham's pit stops. I think this an area where the driver can make a
difference. Schumacher was very good at pit stops. The teams mark out
the pit front and the crew are pre-positioned against those marks. If
you don't stop the car exactly on the marks the crew have to make a
shift and that costs time. Schumacher was known for his accuracy in
hitting the marks. Typically he paid attention to that detail.
I don't say it happens every time, but I kept an eye on the Merc pit
stops that were shown at Hockenheim, and at least twice Hamilton
overshot the marks just a little. Just a little, but that little may
mean the guys with the wheels have to move slightly, the jack guys
have to compensate and all that adds up to a less than optimal pit
stop.

I noticed Hamilton missing his marks at Hockenheim (as did the Sky team)
and, TTBOMK it's not usual for him to do so. Perhaps the CI discs were
partly to blame there?

--
</Shaun>.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

2014-07-27 10:34:58 UTC

Double points is used in some sailing events for the last race of a series. Eg the AC 45 series last year when a USA boat won the last race and tied with Sir Ben Ainslie who finished around 5th. However rather than a count back of wins etc resulting in a BA overall win, the peverse US rules stated that the highest place in the last race would win - so USA won. At least F1 uses the countback - until Abu Dhabi!

Mower Man

2014-07-26 20:41:15 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

I disagree. And, btw, as it seems this was a high pressure fuel leak,
surely killing the fuel pumps by switching the lot off earlier might
have helped to avoid a certain amount of damage? "I can't stop the car"?
Looked to me like "I want to get to the pit"?

Also, whatever happened to on-board fire extinguishers?

--
Chris

'Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.'

(Oscar Wilde.)

Lord Charles

2014-07-26 20:52:04 UTC

Post by Mower Man

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

His brakes went first, he slowed and then saw the fire.

Post by Mower Man
Also, whatever happened to on-board fire extinguishers?

Isn't that to protect the driver?

Brian Lawrence

2014-07-27 15:04:04 UTC

Post by Mower Man

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

I disagree. And, btw, as it seems this was a high pressure fuel leak,
surely killing the fuel pumps by switching the lot off earlier might
have helped to avoid a certain amount of damage? "I can't stop the car"?
Looked to me like "I want to get to the pit"?
Also, whatever happened to on-board fire extinguishers?

According to the regs. there must be two, one for the cockpit and one
for the engine compartment. I'm not absolutely certain, but it appears
they are driver operated - or externally by marshals (marked with a red
letter E).

--
Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

alister

2014-07-26 21:08:03 UTC

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

Those 50 points in the last race could come in handy.

True.
Which underlines the fact that we can all be partisan. As a Hamilton fan
I will be outraged if Nico grabs the championship as a result of the
double points rule whereas if Lewis does .... ;-)

it will still be a de-valued championship

Post by Sir Tim
In actual fact if either of them wins as a result of double points their
achievement will probably be slightly diminished in the eyes of the
fans.

yep

--
Exhilaration is that feeling you get just after a great idea hits you,
and just before you realize what is wrong with it.

Philip

2014-07-27 11:59:30 UTC

In article <1641716879428073535.274732bentley-

Post by Sir Tim
Very little hope for Lewis now.

So what's changed? That was equally true before the season started.

Nico is the better driver (yes, Lewis has had some bad luck, but he has
also made FAR more mistakes than Nico). Perhaps it's now time for Mercedes
to acknowledge that and officially make Lewis the No. 2 driver.

build

2014-07-27 13:10:00 UTC