Discussion:
National racing colours
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Bobster
2017-02-03 07:00:09 UTC
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I take it that when we say the British cars raced in green (or did they? Was that ENGLISH cars? Walker and Tyrell raced blue cars), French cars in blue and etc, it implies a specific shade.

I ask because the Dutch colour is orange, but McLarens were also orange at first, though quite a different colour from that the Dutch soccer and cricket teams use.
Bobster
2017-02-03 08:03:59 UTC
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Post by Bobster
I take it that when we say the British cars raced in green (or did they? Was that ENGLISH cars? Walker and Tyrell raced blue cars), French cars in blue and etc, it implies a specific shade.
I ask because the Dutch colour is orange, but McLarens were also orange at first, though quite a different colour from that the Dutch soccer and cricket teams use.
Asked and answered, M'Lud!

Walker's cars were blue, but they were not the FRENCH blue.

French cars used to have their bodywork painted "Bleau de France" and had white numerals.
brafield
2017-02-03 15:44:41 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Asked and answered, M'Lud!
Walker's cars were blue, but they were not the FRENCH blue.
French cars used to have their bodywork painted "Bleau de France" and had white numerals.
French blue was (is?) the colour of mechanics' overalls and driving suits. Likewise different from the drab blue of a French worker's denim jacket and bib-and-brace. Pas pareil, hein?
a425couple
2017-02-03 17:28:09 UTC
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Post by Bobster
I take it that when we say the British cars raced in green
- (or did they? Was that ENGLISH cars? Walker and Tyrell raced blue cars),
- French cars in blue and etc, it implies a specific shade.
Post by Bobster
I ask because the Dutch colour is orange, but McLarens were also
- orange at first, though quite a different colour from that the Dutch
- soccer and cricket teams use.

This is somewhat helpful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_auto_racing_colours

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Walker_Racing_Team
"Walker, who entered his cars in Scottish national colours
(blue with a white stripe, instead of the more common British Racing Green)"
Same as with the frequent Le Mans winning team Ecurie Ecosse.

Here are plenty of pictures of the French normal shade,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleu_de_France_(colour)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
Much of this is relevant, but the key sentence is:
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren
There first F1 entry was at Monaco in 1966.
That car was white with a very, very dark green stripe and flair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren#Sponsorship.2C_naming.2C_and_livery
"for their first season ran white-and-green coloured cars, which came
about as a result of a deal with the makers of the film Grand Prix."
At their first GP win in Belgium 1968 they were orange (yellowish shade).
http://egarage.com/car-profiles/mclaren-orange/
"McLaren’s iconic orange paint was first seen on the McLaren M6A
Can-Am racer in the 1967 season. Often colors chosen for racing cars
have some nationalistic tie in or are a match to the sponsorship company’s
color scheme, but this now unmistakeable orange paint was chosen
simply to stand out better on America’s (then) new color televisions."
(all at the site is a good read.)

This is good also:
http://www.mclaren.com/formula1/blog/alan-henry/changing-face-mclaren-f1-car-liveries/

The traditional Dutch color, as driven by
http://www.carelgodindebeaufort.com/
or pictured at
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=765&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=Carel+Godin+de+Beaufort&oq=Carel+Godin+de+Beaufort&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24k1.449400.452224.1.455109.16.4.10.0.4.0.90.177.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.img..5.10.128.0..0i8i30k1j0i30k1j0i67k1.388tB0zHh78
was quite different than McLaren - more 'reddish' ?
Bobster
2017-02-03 20:57:13 UTC
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Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
a425couple
2017-02-04 00:06:46 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
? What color do you see it as being?
Be aware, although Google images are often correct,
as to requests like "Canadian GP 1970",
they often enough have errors (mixing other tracks & years).

The first Tyrrell F1 car was built as a secret project,
While Ken Tyrrell entered Jackie Stewart for most of 1970
in a March-Ford.
At the 1970 Italian GP at Monza on September 6, 1970,
Jackie Stewart drove a March-Ford to 2nd place.
The 1970 Canadian Grand Prix was a Formula One motor race held
at Circuit Mont-Tremblant on September 20, 1970 and was where
Stewart first ran the Tyrrell. Everything I can find indicates
it was blue.
My 1970/71 Automobile Year shows pictures of the new
Tyrrell car in Canada, it had the high flat front wing,
it was car #3, and dnfed. The picture is black & white
but seems consistent with blue.
At the next race, the US GP, the car did well, until dnfing,
and was #1. And the final race was Mexico, and
Stewart was again #1.
The back jacket of the book does have a color picture
of Stewart in the Tyrrell #1, and is clearly blue.

My Sports Car Graphic's do not have a color picture of it.
Bobster
2017-02-04 04:14:08 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries
were NOT painted blue.
? What color do you see it as being?
I'm talking pre-F1 days.

In F1 when they were racing Matras it was the French blue, but after that they got closer to the blue of a Scotlnand rugby or soccer jersey.
Alan Baker
2017-02-04 04:18:34 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
? What color do you see it as being? Be aware, although Google images
are often correct, as to requests like "Canadian GP 1970", they often
enough have errors (mixing other tracks & years).
The first Tyrrell F1 car was built as a secret project, While Ken
Tyrrell entered Jackie Stewart for most of 1970 in a March-Ford. At the
1970 Italian GP at Monza on September 6, 1970, Jackie Stewart drove a
March-Ford to 2nd place. The 1970 Canadian Grand Prix was a Formula One
motor race held at Circuit Mont-Tremblant on September 20, 1970 and was
where Stewart first ran the Tyrrell. Everything I can find indicates it
was blue. My 1970/71 Automobile Year shows pictures of the new Tyrrell
car in Canada, it had the high flat front wing, it was car #3, and
dnfed. The picture is black & white but seems consistent with blue. At
the next race, the US GP, the car did well, until dnfing, and was #1.
And the final race was Mexico, and Stewart was again #1. The back jacket
of the book does have a color picture of Stewart in the Tyrrell #1, and
is clearly blue.
My Sports Car Graphic's do not have a color picture of it.
ESPEN does...

<http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/image/61949.html>
a425couple
2017-02-04 17:13:35 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were
NOT painted blue.
? What color do you see it as being? Be aware, although Google images
are often correct, as to requests like "Canadian GP 1970", they often
enough have errors (mixing other tracks & years).
The first Tyrrell F1 car was built as a secret project, While Ken
Tyrrell entered Jackie Stewart for most of 1970 in a March-Ford. At the
1970 Italian GP at Monza on September 6, 1970, Jackie Stewart drove a
March-Ford to 2nd place. The 1970 Canadian Grand Prix was a Formula One
motor race held at Circuit Mont-Tremblant on September 20, 1970 and was
where Stewart first ran the Tyrrell. Everything I can find indicates it
was blue. My 1970/71 Automobile Year shows pictures of the new Tyrrell
car in Canada, it had the high flat front wing, it was car #3, and
dnfed. The picture is black & white but seems consistent with blue. At
the next race, the US GP, the car did well, until dnfing, and was #1.
And the final race was Mexico, and Stewart was again #1. The back jacket
of the book does have a color picture of Stewart in the Tyrrell #1, and
is clearly blue.
My Sports Car Graphic's do not have a color picture of it.
ESPEN does...
<http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/image/61949.html>
Yes. Thank you. Clearly the debut. &#3. Blue.
"Jackie Stewart debuts the new Tyrrell 001, Canadian Grand Prix,
Mont-Tremblant, September 20, 1970"
~misfit~
2017-02-04 04:43:17 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
? What color do you see it as being?
Be aware, although Google images are often correct,
as to requests like "Canadian GP 1970",
they often enough have errors (mixing other tracks & years).
The first Tyrrell F1 car was built as a secret project,
While Ken Tyrrell entered Jackie Stewart for most of 1970
in a March-Ford.
At the 1970 Italian GP at Monza on September 6, 1970,
Jackie Stewart drove a March-Ford to 2nd place.
The 1970 Canadian Grand Prix was a Formula One motor race held
at Circuit Mont-Tremblant on September 20, 1970 and was where
Stewart first ran the Tyrrell. Everything I can find indicates
it was blue.
My 1970/71 Automobile Year shows pictures of the new
Tyrrell car in Canada, it had the high flat front wing,
it was car #3, and dnfed. The picture is black & white
but seems consistent with blue.
At the next race, the US GP, the car did well, until dnfing,
and was #1. And the final race was Mexico, and
Stewart was again #1.
The back jacket of the book does have a color picture
of Stewart in the Tyrrell #1, and is clearly blue.
My Sports Car Graphic's do not have a color picture of it.
Heh! Bob as wrong so probably a long cricket diatribe incoming....

Yeah I know, I should probably stfu but its the off season!!!!
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-02-04 15:37:38 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Yeah I know, I should probably stfu but its the off season!!!!
You are too fucking stupid to take your own advice.
~misfit~
2017-02-05 01:04:50 UTC
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Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by ~misfit~
Yeah I know, I should probably stfu but its the off season!!!!
You are too fucking stupid to take your own advice.
Don't take your eyes off the prize!!!! Keep that head bobbing. ;)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Halmyre
2017-02-04 10:17:46 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
Which ones? AFAIK the only non-blue car (whether Matra, March or Tyrrell) Stewart ever drove for Ken Tyrrell in F1 was the interim Matra MS9 at the 1968 South African Grand Prix, which was in its green primer.
a425couple
2017-02-04 17:40:09 UTC
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Post by Halmyre
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell
entries were NOT painted blue.
Which ones? AFAIK the only non-blue car (whether Matra, March
- or Tyrrell) Stewart ever drove for Ken Tyrrell in F1 was the interim
- Matra MS9 at the 1968 South African Grand Prix, which was in its
- green primer.

Interesting. Thank you for adding.
Google Images of "1968 South African Grand Prix".
OK. #16. And it all matches up with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_South_African_Grand_Prix
another repeat picture
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392094711280300806/
also, different picture/view
http://8w.forix.com/matrainternational.html
IMHO, a very interesting read there.
The most relevant sentences being:
"To get the car out for practice Tyrrell's people had been taking care
of the important bits - their most obvious omission was neglecting to
get some decent French bleu onto the primered bodywork...
Despite the sloppy paint job the beefed-up F2 chassis proved a revelation,
Jackie taking the paddock by surprise by putting it third on the grid. "

much further down by other author:
"--- The Matra engineers first built a fully adjustable prototype (the MS9)
based on the MS7 F-2 car. They considered it strictly a test vehicle and
it was shipped to Tyrrell painted only in an ugly green primer. The most
notable feature of these cars was the "structural" fuel tanks with their
internal bulkheads that made them lighter and more rigid than the
competition. Tyrrell decided that the best place to find good weather for
testing would be in South Africa, so he may as well enter the first race
of the year at Kyalami and have a chance to win some prize money to
pay for the shipping costs. Once in Kyalami the team had to chop back
the makeshift nose that came with the car in a vain attempt to cure an
overheating problem. --- This was to be the only race for the MS9."

Fascinating. Again, thank you Halmyre, for further leads.
Halmyre
2017-02-04 23:50:37 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by Halmyre
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell
entries were NOT painted blue.
Which ones? AFAIK the only non-blue car (whether Matra, March
- or Tyrrell) Stewart ever drove for Ken Tyrrell in F1 was the interim
- Matra MS9 at the 1968 South African Grand Prix, which was in its
- green primer.
Interesting. Thank you for adding.
Google Images of "1968 South African Grand Prix".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_South_African_Grand_Prix
another repeat picture
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392094711280300806/
also, different picture/view
http://8w.forix.com/matrainternational.html
IMHO, a very interesting read there.
"To get the car out for practice Tyrrell's people had been taking care
of the important bits - their most obvious omission was neglecting to
get some decent French bleu onto the primered bodywork...
Despite the sloppy paint job the beefed-up F2 chassis proved a revelation,
Jackie taking the paddock by surprise by putting it third on the grid. "
"--- The Matra engineers first built a fully adjustable prototype (the MS9)
based on the MS7 F-2 car. They considered it strictly a test vehicle and
it was shipped to Tyrrell painted only in an ugly green primer. The most
notable feature of these cars was the "structural" fuel tanks with their
internal bulkheads that made them lighter and more rigid than the
competition. Tyrrell decided that the best place to find good weather for
testing would be in South Africa, so he may as well enter the first race
of the year at Kyalami and have a chance to win some prize money to
pay for the shipping costs. Once in Kyalami the team had to chop back
the makeshift nose that came with the car in a vain attempt to cure an
overheating problem. --- This was to be the only race for the MS9."
Fascinating. Again, thank you Halmyre, for further leads.
Ta.

The MS9 was really a test mule for the Cosworth DFV installation. Matra had already adapted the Formula 2 MS7 for the Matra V12 (the MS11) but Ken wanted the Cosworth, and persuaded Matra to let him have his way. The MS9, unlike the MS7/MS11, used the engine as a stressed chassis member. This led to the MS10 and nearly gave JYS his first WC. Matra then ditched the V12 to concentrate on the championship wining MS80.

However. Something just occurred to me. How come the Cosworth-based MS9/MS10 numbers come before the Matra V12 MS11?
a425couple
2017-02-05 04:11:25 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by Halmyre
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell
entries were NOT painted blue.
Which ones? AFAIK the only non-blue car (whether Matra, March
- or Tyrrell) Stewart ever drove for Ken Tyrrell in F1 was the interim
- Matra MS9 at the 1968 South African Grand Prix, which was in its
- green primer.
Interesting. Thank you for adding.
Google Images of "1968 South African Grand Prix".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_South_African_Grand_Prix
another repeat picture
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/392094711280300806/
also, different picture/view
http://8w.forix.com/matrainternational.html
IMHO, a very interesting read there.
"To get the car out for practice Tyrrell's people had been taking care
of the important bits - their most obvious omission was neglecting to
get some decent French bleu onto the primered bodywork...
Despite the sloppy paint job the beefed-up F2 chassis proved a revelation,
Jackie taking the paddock by surprise by putting it third on the grid. "
"--- The Matra engineers first built a fully adjustable prototype (the MS9)
based on the MS7 F-2 car. They considered it strictly a test vehicle and
it was shipped to Tyrrell painted only in an ugly green primer. The most
notable feature of these cars was the "structural" fuel tanks with their
internal bulkheads that made them lighter and more rigid than the
competition. Tyrrell decided that the best place to find good weather for
testing would be in South Africa, so he may as well enter the first race
of the year at Kyalami and have a chance to win some prize money to
pay for the shipping costs. Once in Kyalami the team had to chop back
the makeshift nose that came with the car in a vain attempt to cure an
overheating problem. --- This was to be the only race for the MS9."
Fascinating. Again, thank you Halmyre, for further leads.
- Ta.
- The MS9 was really a test mule for the Cosworth DFV installation.
-Matra had already adapted the Formula 2 MS7 for the Matra V12
-(the MS11) but Ken wanted the Cosworth, and persuaded Matra to
-let him have his way. The MS9, unlike the MS7/MS11, used the
-engine as a stressed chassis member. This led to the MS10 and
-nearly gave JYS his first WC. Matra then ditched the V12 to
-concentrate on the championship wining MS80.
-
-However. Something just occurred to me. How come the Cosworth-based
- MS9/MS10 numbers come before the Matra V12 MS11?

Hmmm, I do not know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_MS9
hmmm - that has another picture of green car,
in a museum, at Donington.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_MS10
"The Matra MS10 is a Formula One car entered by the Matra
International team during the 1968 Formula One season. It, along
with its V12-powered sibling MS11, was Matra's first purpose-built
F1 car and won three races in 1968 ---
Following its success in Formula 2, Matra had developed a F1 car intended to
be powered by their own V12 engine. However, Ken Tyrrell, who was running
the Formula 2 team, was impressed by the Cosworth DFV's performance in the
1967 season, and persuaded Matra to build a car to take this engine.[2] In
the end, Matra Sports would run the V12-engined MS11 as a works entry, and
Tyrrell would run the V8-engined MS10 under the Matra International banner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matra_MS11

Possible answer = they were not "ideally funded",
and external customer Ken Tyrell was a paying customer
and thus got priority.
The MS9 was designated, designed, and then built and 'completed'
in time to run at RSA = 1 January 1968.
The MS10 was designated, designed, built and then completed in
time to run at Spain = on May 12, 1968.
The MS11 was designated, designed, built and then completed in
time for one to run at Monte Carlo Circuit on May 26, 1968.

Or, possible answer, they knew they were not going to be great
right out of the box, and that these new projects always have a
learning curve, things go better and faster the 2nd time, and even
better the third and forth time. Do the learning on some other
person's dime.

Bobster
2017-02-05 03:36:07 UTC
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Post by Halmyre
Post by Bobster
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrell_Racing
"Tyrrell was still sponsored by French fuel company Elf,
and Tyrrell would retain the traditional French blue racing
colours for most of the rest of its existence."
Yes. In fact some googling shows that early on the Tyrell entries were NOT painted blue.
Which ones? AFAIK the only non-blue car (whether Matra, March or Tyrrell) Stewart ever drove for Ken Tyrrell in F1 was the interim Matra MS9 at the 1968 South African Grand Prix, which was in its green primer.
Yes, the F1 cars were blue early on, but as per an earlier comment, I was referring to Tyrrell pre-F1. Blue was not the Tyrrell team colour, but a sponsor colour.
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