Discussion:
So how was it all Hamiltons fault this time?
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alister
2017-09-17 16:44:10 UTC
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I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make it
his fault
--
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-- Tina Turner
larkim
2017-09-17 17:08:51 UTC
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Yes, undoubtedly Hamilton free incident. He's got to be glad he qualified where he did.

When was the last time three of the top five on the grid didn't make it round the first lap?
larkim
2017-09-17 17:10:41 UTC
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Yes, undoubtedly Hamilton free incident. He's got to be glad he qualified where he did.

When was the last time three of the top five on the grid didn't make it round the first lap?
Brian Lawrence
2017-09-17 18:17:08 UTC
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Post by larkim
Yes, undoubtedly Hamilton free incident. He's got to be glad he qualified where he did.
When was the last time three of the top five on the grid didn't make it round the first lap?
I was looking at races where the pole sitter failed to complete lap
one. Only found 10:

J Brabham MON 1967
N Lauda GER 1974
N Lauda ESP 1975
M Andretti BEL 1977
A Senna JPN 1990
A Senna PAC 1994
M Schumacher MON 1996
J Villeneuve AUS 1997
M Hakkinen BEL 1998
R Barrichello AUS 2002

Thirteen times the 2nd driver on the grid failed to finish the first
lap. One coincided with the pole sitter:

A Prost JPN 1990

I found 73 races where at least 3 drivers failed to finish lap one, but
haven't checked - yet - whether they were in top 5 on grid.

I thought the 1998 BEL GP (Hakkinen above) might be a candidate, but
Mika was the only one (of 7 DNFs ) who qualified in the top 5.
bra
2017-09-17 18:48:47 UTC
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Post by Brian Lawrence
Post by larkim
When was the last time three of the top five on the grid didn't make it round the first lap?
I was looking at races where the pole sitter failed to complete lap
J Brabham MON 1967
I remember Brabham nosing into the barrier, because the commentator (Baxter?) used the word "philosophical" to predict Brabham's reaction to the accident. Jack was 41 years old, so he knew all the ups and downs.

Or did Brabham go nose first on a different Monaco occasion?
larkim
2017-09-17 19:03:48 UTC
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I watched the Spa 98 start again.

Because they had spare cars and the restart it gives a misleading impression, had that race continued instead of being restarted it would have fit my test easily I think.
alister
2017-09-17 19:34:46 UTC
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Post by larkim
I watched the Spa 98 start again.
Because they had spare cars and the restart it gives a misleading
impression, had that race continued instead of being restarted it would
have fit my test easily I think.
it could quite probably also have heeled the record for fewest finishers
(& I include the Indianapolis fiasco in that list)
--
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alister
2017-09-17 19:37:07 UTC
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Post by alister
Post by larkim
I watched the Spa 98 start again.
Because they had spare cars and the restart it gives a misleading
impression, had that race continued instead of being restarted it would
have fit my test easily I think.
it could quite probably also have heeled the record for fewest finishers
(& I include the Indianapolis fiasco in that list)
& fortunately it happened in the 90's & not the 70's or spare cares
probably would not have made been pointless
--
Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore benefit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there.
Brian Lawrence
2017-09-19 19:01:06 UTC
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Post by larkim
When was the last time three of the top five on the grid didn't make
it round the first lap?
These are the GPs where there were 3 (or more) DNFs on lap one. Excludes
any DNS and those eliminated in all but the final race start. I've
posted all the 20th century first and will add those since 1999 later.
The grid positions are actually where they qualified, so it's possible
some might have been moved - but I didn't notice any.

GP# GP Year Tot Drivers (QP)
======================================================================
2 MON 1950 9 Farina (2), Fagioli (5), Rosier (10), Manzon (11),
de Graffenreid (12), Trintignant (13),
Harrison (14), Rol (17), Schell (19)
72 GER 1958 3 Brabham (19), Bonnier (21), Naylor (25)
74 ITA 1958 3 von Trips (6), Schell (9), Brabham (15)

104 MON 1962 3 Gurney (5), Trintignant (7), Ginther (13)

143 BEL 1966 8 Stewart (3), Bonnier (6), Spence (7), G Hill (9),
Clark (10), Bondurant (11), Hulme (13), Siffert (14)
154 BEL 1967 3 Parkes (8), Surtees (10), Irwin (15)

241 MON 1974 7 Beltoise (11), Hulme (12), Merzario (14),
Brambilla (15), Redman (16), Pace (17),
Schenken (22)
244 FRA 1974 3 Pryce (3), Hunt (10), Pescarolo (19)
267 LB 1976 3 Brambilla (8), Reutemann (10), Nilsson (20)
303 BEL 1978 3 Lauda (3), Hunt (6), Fittipaldi (15)
311 ITA 1978 5 Peterson (5), Pironi (14), Stuck (17), Lunger (21),
Brambilla (23)
314 ARG 1979 5 Scheckter (5), Pironi (8), Tambay (9), Piquet (20),
Merzario (22)
317 LB 1979 3 Hunt (8), Lauda (11), Tambay (19)

332 LB 1980 3 Lammers (4), Andretti (15), Zunino (18)
334 MON 1980 4 Giacomelli (8), Jarier (9), Prost (10), Daly (12)
344 BRA 1981 3 Arnoux (8), Andretti (9), Serra (22)
362 BEL 1982 3 Winkelhock (12), Giacomelli (15), Salazar (18)
365 CDN 1982 3 Jarier (18), Paletti (23), Lees (25)
367 GBR 1982 3 Patrese (2), Arnoux (6), T Fabi (15)
370 AUT 1982 3 Daly (9), de Cesaris (11), Giacomelli (13)
372 ITA 1982 3 Daly (13), Warwick (16), Henton (20)
384 AUT 1983 3 de Angelis (12), Surer (22), Sullivan (23)
403 Eur 1984 5 K Rosberg (4), Senna (12), Surer (16), Berger (18),
Ghinzani (20)
412 GBR 1985 3 Tambay (13), Alliot (21), Ghinzani (25)
422 RSM 1986 3 Palmer (16), Jones (17), Nannini (25)
455 MON 1988 3 Piquet (11), Streiff (12), Caffi (17)
474 CDN 1989 3 Modena (7), Martini (11), Alboreto (20)

487 RSM 1990 3 Capelli (18), Nakajima (19), Moreno (24)
499 JPN 1990 3 Senna (PP), Prost (2), Modena (21)
518 MEX 1992 3 Gugelmin (8), Wendlinger (19), Capelli (20)
524 FRA 1992 4 Senna (3), Gachot (13), Gugelmin (24), Chiesa 26
527 HUN 1992 4 Boutsen (8), Comas (11), Tarquini (12), Herbert (13)
532 AUS 1992 3 Alboreto (11), Grouillard (13), Martini (14)
534 BRA 1993 4 Mi Andretti (5), Berger (13), Brundle (16),
Barbazza (24)
545 ITA 1993 5 Suzuki (8), Warwick (11), Lehto (13),
Barrichello (19), Apicella (23)
550 Pac 1994 3 Senna (PP), Larini (7), Blundell (12)
552 MON 1994 4 Häkkinen (2), D Hill (4), Morbidelli (7),
Martini (9)
557 GER 1994 11 Alesi (2), Blundell (7), Häkkinen (8), Frentzen (9),
Irvine (10), Barrichello (11), Herbert (15),
de Cesaris (18), Martini (20), Zanardi (21),
Alboreto (23)
558 HUN 1994 3 Katayama (5), Irvine (7), Barrichello (10)
560 ITA 1994 3 Verstappen (10), Zanardi (13), Morbidelli (17)
563 JPN 1994 3 Lehto (15), Noda (23), Inoue (26)
566 ARG 1995 4 Häkkinen (5), Badoer (13), Wendlinger (21),
Gachot (23)
571 FRA 1995 3 Inoue (18), Katayama (19), Diniz (23)
587 MON 1996 5 M Schumacher (PP), Barrichello (6), Verstappen (12),
Fisichella (18), Lamy (19)
588 ESP 1996 3 Coulthard (14), Lamy (18), Rosset (20)
594 BEL 1996 3 Frentzen (11), Herbert (12), Panis (14)
598 AUS 1997 4 J Villeneuve (PP), Irvine (5), Herbert (7),
R Schumacher (11)
604 CDN 1997 3 Häkkinen (9), Irvine (12), Magnussen (21)
621 CDN 1998 5 Häkkinen (2), R Schumacher (5), Alesi (9),
Trulli (14), Takagi (16)
627 BEL 1998 3 Häkkinen (PP), Wurz (11), Herbert (12)
636 CDN 1999 3 Alesi (8), Trulli (9), Wurz (11)
644 Eur 1999 3 D Hill (7), Wurz (11), Diniz (13)

I noticed Jarno Trulli appeared several times, so I checked for any
drivers who suffered more than 9 lap one DNFs in their career:

15 Jarno Trulli
12 Rubens Barrichello
11 Andrea de Cesaris
10 Patrick Tambay
10 Kimi Räikkönen

Another 3 just avoided double figures:

David Coulthard
Giancarlo Fisichella
PierLuigi Martini

The VET/VER/RAI troika made the all-time total 706 lap one DNFs.

It was Vettel's 7th & Max's 2nd.
Brian Lawrence
2017-09-20 14:12:33 UTC
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I've posted all the 20th century first and will add those since 1999 later.
656 AUT 2000 3 M Schumacher (4), Trulli (5), Fisichella (8)
660 ITA 2000 6 Barrichello (2), Coulthard (5), Trulli (6),
Frentzen (8), de la Rosa (10), Irvine (14)
663 MAS 2000 3 de la Rosa (14), Heidfeld (19), Diniz (20)
681 AUS 2002 8 Barrichello (PP), R Schumacher (3),
Fisichella (8), Massa (9), Heidfeld (10),
Button (11), Panis (12), McNish (16)
702 ESP 2003 3 Trulli (4), Pizzonia (16), Räikkönen (20)
709 GER 2003 3 Barrichello (3), Räikkönen (5), Firman (18)
722 USA 2004 4 Klien (13), Massa (15), Bruni (18),
Pantano (17)
727 BEL 2004 4 Webber (7), Sato (15), Bruni (17), Pantano (19)
753 AUS 2006 3 Trulli (9), N Rosberg (14), Massa (15)
760 USA 2006 7 Räikkönen (9), Heidfeld (10), Montoya (11),
Webber (12), Speed (13), Klien (16),
Montagny (19)
775 USA 2007 3 Coulthard (11), R Schumacher (12), Barrichello (15)
786 AUS 2008 5 Vettel (9), Button (12), Webber (14),
Fisichella (16), Davidson (21)
808 ESP 2009 4 Trulli (7), Buemi (15), Bourdais (17), Sutil (19)
815 BEL 2009 4 Hamilton (12), Button (14), Alguersuari (17),
Grosjean (19)
819 BRA 2009 3 Sutil (3), Trulli (4), Alonso (10)

822 AUS 2010 3 Buemi (12), Hülkenberg (15), Kobayashi (16)
824 CHN 2010 3 Buemi (13), Kobayashi (15), Liuzzi (18)
836 JPN 2010 4 Hülkenberg (9), Massa (12), Petrov (13), Liuzzi (17)
852 ITA 2011 3 Petrov (7), N Rosberg (9), Liuzzi (24)
864 MON 2012 3 Grosjean (4), de la Rosa (20), Maldonado (24)
870 BEL 2012 4 Pérez (4), Alonso (5), Hamilton (7), Grosjean (8)
925 GBR 2015 3 Grosjean (12), Maldonado (14), Button (18)
939 RUS 2016 3 Vettel (7), Hülkenberg (13), Haryanto (21)
970 SIN 2017 3 Vettel (PP), M Verstappen (2), Räikkönen (4)

The last one appears to be the first time where 3 top-5 starters failed
to complete lap one.


During his Channel 4 commentary David Coulthard noted that two WDCs were
eliminated on lap one - and a third was damaged enough to force him out
after a few laps.

Two WDCs failed to finish on lap one - in the same event:

BEL 1966 G Hill & Clark (subsequent WDCs Hulme & Stewart also DNFd)
BEL 1978 Hunt, Lauda & Fittipaldi (only occasion 3 WDCs)
USW 1979 Hunt & Lauda
JPN 1990 Prost & Senna
BEL 2012 Alonso & Hamilton
SIN 2017 Räikkönen & Vettel
alister
2017-09-20 16:07:17 UTC
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Post by Brian Lawrence
I've posted all the 20th century first and will add those since 1999 later.
656 AUT 2000 3 M Schumacher (4), Trulli (5), Fisichella (8)
660 ITA 2000 6 Barrichello (2), Coulthard (5), Trulli (6),
Frentzen (8), de la Rosa (10), Irvine (14)
663 MAS 2000 3 de la Rosa (14), Heidfeld (19), Diniz (20)
681 AUS 2002 8 Barrichello (PP), R Schumacher (3),
Fisichella (8), Massa (9), Heidfeld (10),
Button (11), Panis (12), McNish (16)
702 ESP 2003 3 Trulli (4), Pizzonia (16), Räikkönen (20)
709 GER 2003 3 Barrichello (3), Räikkönen (5), Firman (18)
722 USA 2004 4 Klien (13), Massa (15), Bruni (18),
Pantano (17)
727 BEL 2004 4 Webber (7), Sato (15), Bruni (17), Pantano (19)
753 AUS 2006 3 Trulli (9), N Rosberg (14), Massa (15)
760 USA 2006 7 Räikkönen (9), Heidfeld (10), Montoya (11),
Webber (12), Speed (13), Klien (16),
Montagny (19)
775 USA 2007 3 Coulthard (11), R Schumacher (12), Barrichello (15)
786 AUS 2008 5 Vettel (9), Button (12), Webber (14),
Fisichella (16), Davidson (21)
808 ESP 2009 4 Trulli (7), Buemi (15), Bourdais (17), Sutil (19) 815
BEL 2009 4 Hamilton (12), Button (14), Alguersuari (17),
Grosjean (19)
819 BRA 2009 3 Sutil (3), Trulli (4), Alonso (10)
822 AUS 2010 3 Buemi (12), Hülkenberg (15), Kobayashi (16)
824 CHN 2010 3 Buemi (13), Kobayashi (15), Liuzzi (18)
836 JPN 2010 4 Hülkenberg (9), Massa (12), Petrov (13), Liuzzi (17)
852 ITA 2011 3 Petrov (7), N Rosberg (9), Liuzzi (24)
864 MON 2012 3 Grosjean (4), de la Rosa (20), Maldonado (24)
870 BEL 2012 4 Pérez (4), Alonso (5), Hamilton (7), Grosjean (8) 925
GBR 2015 3 Grosjean (12), Maldonado (14), Button (18)
939 RUS 2016 3 Vettel (7), Hülkenberg (13), Haryanto (21)
970 SIN 2017 3 Vettel (PP), M Verstappen (2), Räikkönen (4)
The last one appears to be the first time where 3 top-5 starters failed
to complete lap one.
During his Channel 4 commentary David Coulthard noted that two WDCs were
eliminated on lap one - and a third was damaged enough to force him out
after a few laps.
BEL 1966 G Hill & Clark (subsequent WDCs Hulme & Stewart also DNFd)
BEL 1978 Hunt, Lauda & Fittipaldi (only occasion 3 WDCs)
USW 1979 Hunt & Lauda JPN 1990 Prost & Senna BEL 2012 Alonso &
Hamilton SIN 2017 Räikkönen & Vettel
<Pedant Mode On>
2001 - present are 21st Century
1901-2000 are 20th century
--
Also, the Scots are said to have invented golf. Then they had
to invent Scotch whiskey to take away the pain and frustration.
Bruce Hoult
2017-09-20 16:24:30 UTC
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Post by Brian Lawrence
I've posted all the 20th century first and will add those since 1999 later.
656 AUT 2000 3 M Schumacher (4), Trulli (5), Fisichella (8)
660 ITA 2000 6 Barrichello (2), Coulthard (5), Trulli (6),
Frentzen (8), de la Rosa (10), Irvine (14)
663 MAS 2000 3 de la Rosa (14), Heidfeld (19), Diniz (20)
681 AUS 2002 8 Barrichello (PP), R Schumacher (3),
Fisichella (8), Massa (9), Heidfeld (10),
Button (11), Panis (12), McNish (16)
702 ESP 2003 3 Trulli (4), Pizzonia (16), Räikkönen (20)
709 GER 2003 3 Barrichello (3), Räikkönen (5), Firman (18)
722 USA 2004 4 Klien (13), Massa (15), Bruni (18),
Pantano (17)
727 BEL 2004 4 Webber (7), Sato (15), Bruni (17), Pantano (19)
753 AUS 2006 3 Trulli (9), N Rosberg (14), Massa (15)
760 USA 2006 7 Räikkönen (9), Heidfeld (10), Montoya (11),
Webber (12), Speed (13), Klien (16),
Montagny (19)
775 USA 2007 3 Coulthard (11), R Schumacher (12), Barrichello (15)
786 AUS 2008 5 Vettel (9), Button (12), Webber (14),
Fisichella (16), Davidson (21)
808 ESP 2009 4 Trulli (7), Buemi (15), Bourdais (17), Sutil (19)
815 BEL 2009 4 Hamilton (12), Button (14), Alguersuari (17),
Grosjean (19)
819 BRA 2009 3 Sutil (3), Trulli (4), Alonso (10)
822 AUS 2010 3 Buemi (12), Hülkenberg (15), Kobayashi (16)
824 CHN 2010 3 Buemi (13), Kobayashi (15), Liuzzi (18)
836 JPN 2010 4 Hülkenberg (9), Massa (12), Petrov (13), Liuzzi (17)
852 ITA 2011 3 Petrov (7), N Rosberg (9), Liuzzi (24)
864 MON 2012 3 Grosjean (4), de la Rosa (20), Maldonado (24)
870 BEL 2012 4 Pérez (4), Alonso (5), Hamilton (7), Grosjean (8)
925 GBR 2015 3 Grosjean (12), Maldonado (14), Button (18)
939 RUS 2016 3 Vettel (7), Hülkenberg (13), Haryanto (21)
970 SIN 2017 3 Vettel (PP), M Verstappen (2), Räikkönen (4)
Those mentioned more than once in the above:

6 Trulli
4 Räikkönen
4 Massa
4 Grosjean
4 Button
4 Barrichello
3 de la Rosa
3 Webber
3 Vettel
3 Liuzzi
3 Hülkenberg
3 Heidfeld
3 Fisichella
3 Buemi
2 Sutil
2 R Schumacher
2 Petrov
2 Pantano
2 N Rosberg
2 Maldonado
2 Kobayashi
2 Klien
2 Hamilton
2 Coulthard
2 Bruni
2 Alonso
Sir Tim
2017-09-17 17:33:28 UTC
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Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make it
his fault.
:-)

but Ferrari did manage to put all the blame on Max:

Scuderia Ferrari @ScuderiaFerrari 2h
VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP
--
Sir Tim
Mark Jackson
2017-09-17 18:16:28 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault.
:-)
VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP
Followed a while later by:

"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to
speculate on this"

Snicker.

Stewards have taken no action on the incident. I see no fault in the
driving of Kimi or Max. The one questionable thing was the
aggressiveness of Vettel's move to the left to block Max, and based on
past tolerance it's hard to fault the stewards for (implicitly)
approving this one.
--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
It is never a good idea to elect people who promise as many
as six impossible things before breakfast. - Simon Johnson
Alan Baker
2017-09-19 08:15:25 UTC
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Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Sir Tim
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault.
:-)
VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP
"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to
speculate on this"
Snicker.
Stewards have taken no action on the incident.  I see no fault in the
driving of Kimi or Max.  The one questionable thing was the
aggressiveness of Vettel's move to the left to block Max, and based on
past tolerance it's hard to fault the stewards for (implicitly)
approving this one.
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.

The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.

Vettel's move to the left was gradual for the circumstances and
Verstappen would have had racing room to accommodate the move.
geoff
2017-09-19 08:23:21 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.
The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.
RAI was clear, until VET forced VAN across. That's why VAN touched with
his front wheel only RAI's rear wheel, rather than anything further forward.
Post by Alan Baker
Vettel's move to the left was gradual for the circumstances and
Verstappen would have had racing room to accommodate the move.
You must have only watched the slow-motion replay then.

geoff
Alan Baker
2017-09-19 08:43:32 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.
The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.
RAI was clear, until VET forced VAN across. That's why VAN touched with
his front wheel only RAI's rear wheel, rather than anything further forward.
1. For "VAN", I assume you mean Verstappen.

2. If Raikonnen had actually been clear, then there would have been no
contact with Verstappen when Verstappen moved (slightly) to the left.
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Vettel's move to the left was gradual for the circumstances and
Verstappen would have had racing room to accommodate the move.
You must have only watched the slow-motion replay then.
By the standards of racing drivers that was a slow and gradual move.
geoff
2017-09-19 09:33:36 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by geoff
Post by Alan Baker
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.
The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.
RAI was clear, until VET forced VAN across. That's why VAN touched
with his front wheel only RAI's rear wheel, rather than anything
further forward.
1. For "VAN", I assume you mean Verstappen.
Yeah VER.
Post by Alan Baker
2. If Raikonnen had actually been clear, then there would have been no
contact with Verstappen when Verstappen moved (slightly) to the left.
If only your version of 'alongside' followed the same rationale as your
'ahead'.

geoff
Sir Tim
2017-09-19 17:15:15 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Sir Tim
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault.
:-)
VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP
"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to
speculate on this"
Snicker.
Stewards have taken no action on the incident.  I see no fault in the
driving of Kimi or Max.  The one questionable thing was the
aggressiveness of Vettel's move to the left to block Max, and based on
past tolerance it's hard to fault the stewards for (implicitly)
approving this one.
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.
The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.
Vettel's move to the left was gradual for the circumstances and
Verstappen would have had racing room to accommodate the move.
A genuine racing accident IMO.

Raikkonen got an absolute flyer and had a gap - until Verstappen closed it.
Max saw him, but also saw Vettel trying to give him the chop from his
right and this caused him to squeeze Kimi.
Seb didn't get as good a start as the other two and, in an effort to
retain his lead, moved over hard on Verstappen, as he had every right to
do. But of course he didn't know that Kimi was alongside Max.

I can't agree that Seb's move was "gradual" - it looked pretty brutal to
me, but nevertheless legitimate - F1 is not for sissies.

It's a shame we were robbed of what could have been a battle royal. The
only way that Hamilton was responsible was that the wet weather spooked
Vettel into more aggressive action than was wise because he knows how
formidable Lewis is in the wet.
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Alan Baker
2017-09-19 17:47:48 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Mark Jackson
Post by Sir Tim
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault.
:-)
VER took #Kimi7 out and then he went to #Seb5 #SingaporeGP
"What we tweeted was a factual description of events. No need to
speculate on this"
Snicker.
Stewards have taken no action on the incident.  I see no fault in the
driving of Kimi or Max.  The one questionable thing was the
aggressiveness of Vettel's move to the left to block Max, and based
on past tolerance it's hard to fault the stewards for (implicitly)
approving this one.
Actually, if there is any fault at all, it belongs to Kimi.
The overtaking driver is responsible for keeping clear.
Vettel's move to the left was gradual for the circumstances and
Verstappen would have had racing room to accommodate the move.
A genuine racing accident IMO.
Overall, I agree. I said "if" for a reason.
Post by Sir Tim
Raikkonen got an absolute flyer and had a gap - until Verstappen closed it.
Max saw him, but also saw Vettel trying to give him the chop from his
right and this caused him to squeeze Kimi. > Seb didn't get as good a start as the other two and, in an effort to
retain his lead, moved over hard on Verstappen, as he had every right to
do. But of course he didn't know that Kimi was alongside Max.
Vettel didn't give anyone "the chop". He moved left to defend as any
driver in his position would. If Kimi hadn't gotten such a great start,
it would have been utterly unworthy of such much as a raised eyebrow.

Raikkonen absolutely has the right to go for the gap, but at the moment
he made contact with Verstappen, he still had room to his left. Not a
lot, I grant you, but about two to two and a half times the width of a
front tire between him and the wall. And since he and VER only touched
by about half the width of VER's front tire, he could have kept clear.

Still, I agree: racing incident.
Post by Sir Tim
I can't agree that Seb's move was "gradual" - it looked pretty brutal to
me, but nevertheless legitimate - F1 is not for sissies.
Trust me: for those guys, that's gradual.

I just looked, and Vettel's move to the left takes place over just more
than 2 seconds. Check it out:



He first moves to his left at about 3 seconds into the video (a stale 3
seconds, but it's still on 3 when he begins to move), and he isn't all
the way over to Verstappen until about 6 seconds.



:-)
Post by Sir Tim
It's a shame we were robbed of what could have been a battle royal. The
only way that Hamilton was responsible was that the wet weather spooked
Vettel into more aggressive action than was wise because he knows how
formidable Lewis is in the wet.
Absolutely. I'm surprised I'd even need to say it, but of course
Hamilton was in no way at fault. I don't even think that Vettel was
"spooked" by anyone. I think Vettel knew how good Verstappen has shown
himself to be in the wet, and he definitely knows how hard overtaking is
at Singapore.
Sir Tim
2017-09-19 18:22:55 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Trust me: for those guys, that's gradual.
And you last drove an F1 car when?
Post by Alan Baker
I'm surprised I'd even need to say it, but of course
Hamilton was in no way at fault.
I think we all realize there was an element of irony in the original
header.
--
Sir Tim
Alan Baker
2017-09-19 18:27:24 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Alan Baker
Trust me: for those guys, that's gradual.
And you last drove an F1 car when?
I don't have to have driven an F1 car to know what constitutes gradual
vs sudden on a race course.
Post by Sir Tim
Post by Alan Baker
I'm surprised I'd even need to say it, but of course
Hamilton was in no way at fault.
I think we all realize there was an element of irony in the original
header.
t***@gmail.com
2017-09-19 18:46:14 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
And you last drove an F1 car when?
You crusty old bed shitter.
Bruce Hoult
2017-09-17 19:50:52 UTC
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Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make it
his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied "Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."

Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
~misfit~
2017-09-18 10:49:53 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make
it his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck
on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could
avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied
"Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."
Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
LOL yeah I watched Dan say that and thought about it when Seb took himself
and Max (and Kimi) out. ;)

Who was that delicious blonde woman doing pre-race interviews? Blonde's not
usually my preference but she seemed so at ease, erudite and well informed.
All very sexy traits. She even one-upped Hamilton.

It was getting a bit uncomfortable watching Dans increasingly silly and
bizarre interviews with Natalie Pinkham. I saw it mentioned on more than one
forum that 'The Honey Badger had been getting a bit of Pinky' and was going
to completely ignore it as soon as I read it (as I do with gossip) when I
recalled all of the strange interviews she'd done with him over the last few
months.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-09-18 21:33:01 UTC
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Blonde's not usually my preference
Like a loser like you, sitting in a shitty diaper, has a choice.
Bruce Hoult
2017-09-18 21:49:47 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make
it his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck
on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could
avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied
"Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."
Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
LOL yeah I watched Dan say that and thought about it when Seb took himself
and Max (and Kimi) out. ;)
Who was that delicious blonde woman doing pre-race interviews? Blonde's not
usually my preference but she seemed so at ease, erudite and well informed.
All very sexy traits. She even one-upped Hamilton.
This one?

http://www.google.ru/search?q=rosanna+tennant&tbm=isch
~misfit~
2017-09-19 01:49:36 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck
on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could
avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied
"Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."
Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
LOL yeah I watched Dan say that and thought about it when Seb took
himself and Max (and Kimi) out. ;)
Who was that delicious blonde woman doing pre-race interviews?
Blonde's not usually my preference but she seemed so at ease,
erudite and well informed. All very sexy traits. She even one-upped
Hamilton.
This one?
http://www.google.ru/search?q=rosanna+tennant&tbm=isch
That looks like her yes, thanks. I'll look further later to be sure.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-09-19 10:31:42 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck
on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could
avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied
"Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."
Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
LOL yeah I watched Dan say that and thought about it when Seb took
himself and Max (and Kimi) out. ;)
Who was that delicious blonde woman doing pre-race interviews?
Blonde's not usually my preference but she seemed so at ease,
erudite and well informed. All very sexy traits. She even one-upped
Hamilton.
This one?
http://www.google.ru/search?q=rosanna+tennant&tbm=isch
That looks like her yes, thanks. I'll look further later to be sure.
So after a quick check of teh nets it seems she's been an F1 journo for a
while, entered Jensons Triathlon and also seems to have a tie-in with
Mercedes.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bruce Hoult
2017-10-02 15:45:06 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to
make it his fault
On the Sky coverage, in the prerace show, on the truck on the truck
on the driver's parade, the reporter asked Ricciardo if he could
avoid he and Max taking each other out at the start. Dan replied
"Hopefully he'll take Seb out, so yeah."
Flashbacks of Singapore 2008 ... :-) :-)
LOL yeah I watched Dan say that and thought about it when Seb took
himself and Max (and Kimi) out. ;)
Who was that delicious blonde woman doing pre-race interviews?
Blonde's not usually my preference but she seemed so at ease,
erudite and well informed. All very sexy traits. She even one-upped
Hamilton.
This one?
http://www.google.ru/search?q=rosanna+tennant&tbm=isch
That looks like her yes, thanks. I'll look further later to be sure.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Holy cow! Loading Image...

And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you could have anything you want?" Loading Image...
geoff
2017-10-02 19:11:27 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you could have anything you want?" http://hoult.org/RosannaMax.jpg
A root ?

geoff
~misfit~
2017-10-03 01:07:54 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by Bruce Hoult
And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you could
have anything you want?" http://hoult.org/RosannaMax.jpg
A root ?
I don't think Max knows enough Australasian to ask for that. Then again Dan
may have schooled the young fella.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Sir Tim
2017-10-03 06:46:58 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by geoff
Post by Bruce Hoult
And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you could
have anything you want?" http://hoult.org/RosannaMax.jpg
A root ?
I don't think Max knows enough Australasian to ask for that. Then again Dan
may have schooled the young fella.
Anyone who has watched "Rake" will be well acquainted with the term :-)
--
Sir Tim
~misfit~
2017-10-03 07:56:45 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by ~misfit~
Post by geoff
Post by Bruce Hoult
And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you could
have anything you want?" http://hoult.org/RosannaMax.jpg
A root ?
I don't think Max knows enough Australasian to ask for that. Then
again Dan may have schooled the young fella.
Anyone who has watched "Rake" will be well acquainted with the term :-)
Ahh, ok. I don't know what that is but assume an Aussie TV drama or similar.

<checks IMDB>

Ok, Aussie comedy / drama. It gets an 8.7 rating on IMDB which is high. My
personal threshold for watching episode one of anything is 7.5 and I find
that usually anything over 8.2 is good. However I have a dislike of Aussie
culture (oxymoron alert!!! <g>) and find some of the accents to be extremely
grating so am in two minds. Oddly for IMDB there doesn't appear to be a
'similar shows' section for it showing up (which is another tool I use as a
guide as to wether I'll enjoy a show).

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-10-03 23:44:53 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Sir Tim
Post by ~misfit~
Post by geoff
Post by Bruce Hoult
And asking Max "What would you want for your birthday, if you
could have anything you want?" http://hoult.org/RosannaMax.jpg
A root ?
I don't think Max knows enough Australasian to ask for that. Then
again Dan may have schooled the young fella.
Anyone who has watched "Rake" will be well acquainted with the term :-)
Ahh, ok. I don't know what that is but assume an Aussie TV drama or similar.
<checks IMDB>
Ok, Aussie comedy / drama. It gets an 8.7 rating on IMDB which is
high. My personal threshold for watching episode one of anything is
7.5 and I find that usually anything over 8.2 is good. However I have
a dislike of Aussie culture (oxymoron alert!!! <g>) and find some of
the accents to be extremely grating so am in two minds.
Oddly for
IMDB there doesn't appear to be a 'similar shows' section for it
showing up (which is another tool I use as a guide as to wether I'll
enjoy a show).
What I called 'similar shows' is actually entitled "People who liked this
also liked..." and there still isn't such a section showing up for Rake (I
even tried in another browser). I've never seen that before on IMDB and am
struggling to imagine a reason for it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587000
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Sir Tim
2017-10-05 11:37:22 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by ~misfit~
Ok, Aussie comedy / drama. It gets an 8.7 rating on IMDB which is
high. My personal threshold for watching episode one of anything is
7.5 and I find that usually anything over 8.2 is good. However I have
a dislike of Aussie culture (oxymoron alert!!! <g>) and find some of
the accents to be extremely grating so am in two minds.
Oddly for
IMDB there doesn't appear to be a 'similar shows' section for it
showing up (which is another tool I use as a guide as to wether I'll
enjoy a show).
What I called 'similar shows' is actually entitled "People who liked this
also liked..." and there still isn't such a section showing up for Rake (I
even tried in another browser). I've never seen that before on IMDB and am
struggling to imagine a reason for it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587000
I tend to use the IMDB iPad app. which certainly has a "More Like This"
section with plenty of shows in it.

For what it's worth I (a rather English Englishman) very much enjoyed
the Rake series. There's an intelligent review here:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/may/19/so-complex-so-real-why-rake-is-one-of-the-best-shows-on-australian-tv
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
~misfit~
2017-10-07 08:31:34 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by ~misfit~
Post by ~misfit~
Ok, Aussie comedy / drama. It gets an 8.7 rating on IMDB which is
high. My personal threshold for watching episode one of anything is
7.5 and I find that usually anything over 8.2 is good. However I
have a dislike of Aussie culture (oxymoron alert!!! <g>) and find
some of the accents to be extremely grating so am in two minds.
Oddly for
IMDB there doesn't appear to be a 'similar shows' section for it
showing up (which is another tool I use as a guide as to wether I'll
enjoy a show).
What I called 'similar shows' is actually entitled "People who liked
this also liked..." and there still isn't such a section showing up
for Rake (I even tried in another browser). I've never seen that
before on IMDB and am struggling to imagine a reason for it.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587000
I tend to use the IMDB iPad app. which certainly has a "More Like
This" section with plenty of shows in it.
For what it's worth I (a rather English Englishman) very much enjoyed
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2016/may/19/so-complex-so-real-why-rake-is-one-of-the-best-shows-on-australian-tv
Thanks for that.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Martin Harran
2017-09-22 22:12:18 UTC
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Post by alister
I am sure one of the Lewis haters will be able to find a way to make it
his fault
It was all Hamilton's fault for not being in pole position!
t***@gmail.com
2017-09-23 00:01:28 UTC
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Post by Martin Harran
It was all Hamilton's fault for not being in pole position!
Thanks queer. Great use of an exclamation mark, cornholer.
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