Discussion:
Mercedes DTM bombshell
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Bruce Hoult
2017-07-25 13:06:19 UTC
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This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.

Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.

Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.

We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled out of WEC.

The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
Bobster
2017-07-25 15:17:24 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.
Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.
Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.
We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled out of WEC.
The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
Manufacturers come and go from DTM. This isn't the first time Merc have withdrawn from that series.

Merc seem to be thinking that they want to develop hybrid or purely electric cars. FE is then attractive because they can use that to develop components.

Might this be a hedge against the next engine formula not being sufficiently hybrid?

I wonder too if it doesn't expose them to a younger, greener market.
Bobster
2017-07-25 15:18:59 UTC
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Post by Bobster
I wonder too if it doesn't expose them to a younger, greener market.
And more urban.
John
2017-07-25 21:38:27 UTC
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Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.

Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there for innovation in the rules?
Bruce Hoult
2017-07-25 23:13:56 UTC
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Post by John
Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.
Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there for innovation in the rules?
The formula is gradually being freed up with more scope for teams to differentiate.

Season 1: identical cars (except setup): Dallara chassis, McLaren electric motor (from the P1), Williams battery, Hewland 5 speed gearbox, Michelin tyres.

Season 2: identical chassis and battery, teams can make their own electric motor, inverter. ECU, gearbox (some went for only 1 gear), cooling, susppension. Race power increased from 150 to 170 kW (200 kW in quali). 28 kWh battery.

Season 3 (now): maximum regeneration increased from 100 to 150 kW. Maximum battery weight increased from 200 to 230 kg.

Season 4 (2017-18): quali power increased to 220 kW

Season 5 (2018-19): only one car per driver can be using in the race instead of swapping cars near the midpoint. New 250 kg 54 kWh battery made by McLaren (using cells from Sony).
~misfit~
2017-07-26 03:55:04 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by John
Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.
Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there
for innovation in the rules?
The formula is gradually being freed up with more scope for teams to differentiate.
Season 1: identical cars (except setup): Dallara chassis, McLaren
electric motor (from the P1), Williams battery, Hewland 5 speed
gearbox, Michelin tyres.
Season 2: identical chassis and battery, teams can make their own
electric motor, inverter. ECU, gearbox (some went for only 1 gear),
cooling, susppension. Race power increased from 150 to 170 kW (200 kW
in quali). 28 kWh battery.
Season 3 (now): maximum regeneration increased from 100 to 150 kW.
Maximum battery weight increased from 200 to 230 kg.
Season 4 (2017-18): quali power increased to 220 kW
Season 5 (2018-19): only one car per driver can be using in the race
instead of swapping cars near the midpoint. New 250 kg 54 kWh battery
made by McLaren (using cells from Sony).
Thanks for that young fella, I hadn't seen a nice simple summary like that
before.

Previous to this year I'd watched only a few races, now and then whenever I
needed a motorsprot fix and found a torrent when I had enough upload credit.
This year, because Mitch is in the series I've tried to watch every race
(but as usual due to lack of backing he's in a 'development' role :-/ ).
I've always disliked the whole changing car thing, mainly because as I see
it it was telling the viewing public that electric cars weren't ready for a
proper race series without using *two* per driver.

To me that's completely the wrong message to be associating with electric
cars. I'm pleased to see that it's in its last season. :)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
larkim
2017-07-26 13:27:47 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by John
Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.
Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there
for innovation in the rules?
The formula is gradually being freed up with more scope for teams to differentiate.
Season 1: identical cars (except setup): Dallara chassis, McLaren
electric motor (from the P1), Williams battery, Hewland 5 speed
gearbox, Michelin tyres.
Season 2: identical chassis and battery, teams can make their own
electric motor, inverter. ECU, gearbox (some went for only 1 gear),
cooling, susppension. Race power increased from 150 to 170 kW (200 kW
in quali). 28 kWh battery.
Season 3 (now): maximum regeneration increased from 100 to 150 kW.
Maximum battery weight increased from 200 to 230 kg.
Season 4 (2017-18): quali power increased to 220 kW
Season 5 (2018-19): only one car per driver can be using in the race
instead of swapping cars near the midpoint. New 250 kg 54 kWh battery
made by McLaren (using cells from Sony).
Thanks for that young fella, I hadn't seen a nice simple summary like that
before.
Previous to this year I'd watched only a few races, now and then whenever I
needed a motorsprot fix and found a torrent when I had enough upload credit.
This year, because Mitch is in the series I've tried to watch every race
(but as usual due to lack of backing he's in a 'development' role :-/ ).
I've always disliked the whole changing car thing, mainly because as I see
it it was telling the viewing public that electric cars weren't ready for a
proper race series without using *two* per driver.
To me that's completely the wrong message to be associating with electric
cars. I'm pleased to see that it's in its last season. :)
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
The thing that has let the series down for me when I've watched has been
the "mickey mouse" circuits they've used, whether that was shortened
Monaco or the run around the warehouses in New Jersey (?) a few weeks ago.

Whilst the circuits have to be small to compensate for the lack of top end
speed, they often feel too narrow to allow for more dynamic racing.

The cars look OK, though perhaps they'd be better if they were more like
the old 1960s F1 cars or Formula Ford cars with limited aero so they slip
around a bit more for more competitive racing.

Though I suppose they need to look "futuristic".

Electric is clearly the future though.
alister
2017-07-26 15:13:40 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by John
Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.
Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there
for innovation in the rules?
The formula is gradually being freed up with more scope for teams to differentiate.
Season 1: identical cars (except setup): Dallara chassis, McLaren
electric motor (from the P1), Williams battery, Hewland 5 speed
gearbox, Michelin tyres.
Season 2: identical chassis and battery, teams can make their own
electric motor, inverter. ECU, gearbox (some went for only 1 gear),
cooling, susppension. Race power increased from 150 to 170 kW (200 kW
in quali). 28 kWh battery.
Season 3 (now): maximum regeneration increased from 100 to 150 kW.
Maximum battery weight increased from 200 to 230 kg.
Season 4 (2017-18): quali power increased to 220 kW
Season 5 (2018-19): only one car per driver can be using in the race
instead of swapping cars near the midpoint. New 250 kg 54 kWh battery
made by McLaren (using cells from Sony).
Thanks for that young fella, I hadn't seen a nice simple summary like
that before.
Previous to this year I'd watched only a few races, now and then
whenever I needed a motorsprot fix and found a torrent when I had
enough upload credit.
This year, because Mitch is in the series I've tried to watch every
race (but as usual due to lack of backing he's in a 'development' role
:-/ ). I've always disliked the whole changing car thing, mainly
because as I see it it was telling the viewing public that electric
cars weren't ready for a proper race series without using *two* per
driver.
To me that's completely the wrong message to be associating with
electric cars. I'm pleased to see that it's in its last season. :)
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
The thing that has let the series down for me when I've watched has been
the "mickey mouse" circuits they've used, whether that was shortened
Monaco or the run around the warehouses in New Jersey (?) a few weeks ago.
Whilst the circuits have to be small to compensate for the lack of top
end speed, they often feel too narrow to allow for more dynamic racing.
The cars look OK, though perhaps they'd be better if they were more like
the old 1960s F1 cars or Formula Ford cars with limited aero so they
slip around a bit more for more competitive racing.
Though I suppose they need to look "futuristic".
Electric is clearly the future though.
I find this resolves the sound problem

--
The control of the production of wealth is the control of human life
itself.
-- Hilaire Belloc
Bruce Hoult
2017-07-26 23:33:52 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by John
Don't watch Formula E because they make such a horrid noise.
Doesn't E pretty much use all common parts? How much room is there
for innovation in the rules?
The formula is gradually being freed up with more scope for teams to differentiate.
Season 1: identical cars (except setup): Dallara chassis, McLaren
electric motor (from the P1), Williams battery, Hewland 5 speed
gearbox, Michelin tyres.
Season 2: identical chassis and battery, teams can make their own
electric motor, inverter. ECU, gearbox (some went for only 1 gear),
cooling, susppension. Race power increased from 150 to 170 kW (200 kW
in quali). 28 kWh battery.
Season 3 (now): maximum regeneration increased from 100 to 150 kW.
Maximum battery weight increased from 200 to 230 kg.
Season 4 (2017-18): quali power increased to 220 kW
Season 5 (2018-19): only one car per driver can be using in the race
instead of swapping cars near the midpoint. New 250 kg 54 kWh battery
made by McLaren (using cells from Sony).
Thanks for that young fella, I hadn't seen a nice simple summary like that
before.
Previous to this year I'd watched only a few races, now and then whenever I
needed a motorsprot fix and found a torrent when I had enough upload credit.
This year, because Mitch is in the series I've tried to watch every race
(but as usual due to lack of backing he's in a 'development' role :-/ ).
I've always disliked the whole changing car thing, mainly because as I see
it it was telling the viewing public that electric cars weren't ready for a
proper race series without using *two* per driver.
To me that's completely the wrong message to be associating with electric
cars. I'm pleased to see that it's in its last season. :)
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
The thing that has let the series down for me when I've watched has been
the "mickey mouse" circuits they've used, whether that was shortened
Monaco or the run around the warehouses in New Jersey (?) a few weeks ago.
Whilst the circuits have to be small to compensate for the lack of top end
speed, they often feel too narrow to allow for more dynamic racing.
The cars look OK, though perhaps they'd be better if they were more like
the old 1960s F1 cars or Formula Ford cars with limited aero so they slip
around a bit more for more competitive racing.
The aero they have does next to nothing. People's wings fall off all the time without affecting their lap times.

Also, with a single type type covering all conditions, including wet, they slip around plenty. Almost everyone was going around one of the New York corners sideways, some of them almost rally style.
John
2017-07-27 19:00:06 UTC
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Well if I'm still around maybe I'll chech out season five.
t***@gmail.com
2017-07-27 21:53:42 UTC
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Post by John
Well if I'm still around maybe I'll chech out season five.
boo fucking hoo
Sreekumar A
2017-07-26 04:07:46 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.
Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.
Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.
We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled out of WEC.
The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
I have feeling the news below and similar other developments have some
influence in these decisions.

UK to Ban Petrol and Diesel vehicles from 2040.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40723581

More countries may follow.

So car manufacturers would focus more energy in developing fusion or
electric technology and motor sports is always a good way to do the same.

My 2 cents
Sreekumar
Bruce Hoult
2017-07-26 09:42:31 UTC
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Post by Sreekumar A
Post by Bruce Hoult
This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.
Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.
Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.
We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled out of WEC.
The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
I have feeling the news below and similar other developments have some
influence in these decisions.
UK to Ban Petrol and Diesel vehicles from 2040.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40723581
More countries may follow.
Other countries have already done so.

But it's all just bullshit virtue signalling. One government can not bind the next government and such a far-away decision can be reversed at any time. That's four or five elections/governments away!

It's also utterly ridiculous from a technical point of view. Everyone for whome it makes sense will change to electric long before 2040, and those who still have not by 2040 will have a very good reason why, and should not be compelled.
geoff
2017-07-26 10:21:37 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
It's also utterly ridiculous from a technical point of view. Everyone for whome it makes sense will change to electric long before 2040, and those who still have not by 2040 will have a very good reason why, and should not be compelled.
For sure. Many may need to have convert not to electric, but sail !

geoff
~misfit~
2017-07-26 04:08:54 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are
joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.
Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.
Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a
company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.
The near future is electric, not internal combustion and it's just around
the corner. It makes sense for a manufacturer to be an 'early adopter'.
Mercedes have shown through F1 that they're at the pinnacle of hybrid ICE
efficiency, no point staying with plain ICEs any more.
Post by Bruce Hoult
We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in
Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled
out of WEC.
The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
Indeed, thanks for sharing.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bobster
2017-07-30 05:46:08 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
This is almost shocking. We've know for a while that Mercedes are joining the pretty small and little known Formula E series.
Now they've announced they're leaving DTM at the same time.
Wow. I'd have thought DTM would be the *most* important series for a company like Mercedes, far more so that Formula 1.
We've known for almost a year that Audi is putting a works team in Formula E next season (which starts later this year), and has pulled out of WEC.
The Mercedes news has got to be bigger.
BMW are already in Formula E. Porsche are going to get involved in E.

Is Formula E going to be a big success? It seems to be getting a lot of interest from manufactures.
Michael Gooding
2017-07-30 08:33:20 UTC
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I watched some last night. Blimey, it's slow. They're going to have put pieces of cardboard in the wheel spokes to improve the noise, too.
Bobster
2017-07-30 10:20:28 UTC
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Post by Michael Gooding
I watched some last night. Blimey, it's slow. They're going to have put pieces of cardboard in the wheel spokes to improve the noise, too.
I've never watched. I think it is available on one of the sports channels I get (though not live) but I haven't watched.

I didn't expect it to be as fast as F1, but that doesn't mean it can't be a successful series. For a start, it gets into cities, which is getting harder and harder for other types of racing in Europe. It even gets into cities where there is no history of a race in that city.

Secondly, it is becoming more and more relevant to automobile manufacturers who want to improve and/or publicise their electric offerings.
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