Discussion:
Image identity [OT slightly, ping Brian, etc]
(too old to reply)
build
2017-08-28 08:02:28 UTC
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G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
This is part of one of them that is incorrectly labelled:
Loading Image....html

I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?

If possible, I'd like to know:
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Location Name at that time:
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Photographer !:
Other info if known:

Thanks in anticipation,
build
Bobster
2017-08-28 08:43:07 UTC
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Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
build
2017-08-28 09:43:42 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Thank you, great, very quick hunting Bob. Much better than I've managed. I've been through most of what they discovered but . . .

It's not Amon, I'm certain (but often wrong).
Helmet and car does look wrong for Bandini ... but.
I'll ask about "Richard Atwood in Reg Parnell's Lotus 25". Might be a good lead.
Is the 1T car during Practice (wet session 65) possible?

Blokes who have a bit of history knowledge have suggested:
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).

Ping others?

Thanks in anticipation,
build
build
2017-08-28 10:31:01 UTC
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Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Thank you, great, very quick hunting Bob. Much better than I've managed. I've been through most of what they discovered but . . .
It's not Amon, I'm certain (but often wrong).
Helmet and car does look wrong for Bandini ... but.
I'll ask about "Richard Atwood in Reg Parnell's Lotus 25". Might be a good lead.
Is the 1T car during Practice (wet session 65) possible?
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).
Ping others?
Thanks in anticipation,
build
BTW, It is "Beau Rivage?"? or am I doing a 'build'?
Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 11:44:17 UTC
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Post by build
BTW, It is "Beau Rivage?"? or am I doing a 'build'?
Yes it is.


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Halmyre
2017-08-28 17:45:24 UTC
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Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Thank you, great, very quick hunting Bob. Much better than I've managed. I've been through most of what they discovered but . . .
It's not Amon, I'm certain (but often wrong).
Helmet and car does look wrong for Bandini ... but.
I'll ask about "Richard Atwood in Reg Parnell's Lotus 25". Might be a good lead.
Is the 1T car during Practice (wet session 65) possible?
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).
Ping others?
Thanks in anticipation,
build
There's a photo here of Attwood with a bubble visor in 1968.

Loading Image...

If you squint, it looks like the same bloke.

And here's a picture of Innes Ireland in a 1965 PArnell Lotus

Loading Image...

It has a stripe that looks like it could match the one in your picture.
Bobster
2017-08-29 03:09:52 UTC
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Post by build
Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Thank you, great, very quick hunting Bob. Much better than I've managed. I've been through most of what they discovered but . . .
It's not Amon, I'm certain (but often wrong).
Helmet and car does look wrong for Bandini ... but.
I'll ask about "Richard Atwood in Reg Parnell's Lotus 25". Might be a good lead.
Is the 1T car during Practice (wet session 65) possible?
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).
Def Monaco. Def 1965 practice. Def Bandini's car. I think it's Surtees practicing in Bandini's car.
Sir Tim
2017-08-29 10:17:58 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Def Monaco. Def 1965 practice. Def Bandini's car. I think it's Surtees practicing in Bandini's car.
Not sure whether this will work but this link should show Bandini at
Monaco 1965 with Surtees following. Note Bandini's car has a short nose
and other differences from build's picture:

[IMG]Loading Image...[/IMG]

http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8c9nehs
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Bobster
2017-08-29 11:02:53 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
Def Monaco. Def 1965 practice. Def Bandini's car. I think it's Surtees practicing in Bandini's car.
Not sure whether this will work but this link should show Bandini at
Monaco 1965 with Surtees following. Note Bandini's car has a short nose
[IMG]http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s391/Sir_Tim/1965%20mystery%20car/IMG_0263_zpsfz6ok3wl.jpg[/IMG]
"Photo not found"
Post by Sir Tim
http://preview.tinyurl.com/y8c9nehs
--
Sir Tim
“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Sir Tim
2017-08-29 11:31:40 UTC
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Post by Bobster
"Photo not found"
I'm having a lot of trouble with Photobucket. Try this:

http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s391/Sir_Tim/1965%20mystery%20car/IMG_0263_zpsfz6ok3wl.jpg
Sir Tim
2017-08-29 12:05:34 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Def Monaco. Def 1965 practice. Def Bandini's car. I think it's Surtees practicing in Bandini's car.
Okay, now I seem to have Photobox working, back to your thesis :-)

I think we can agree that the pic was certainly taken during the
Thursday (wet) practice at Monaco in 1965.

The driver's helmet certainly looks like Surtees's but I feel sure that
the car is not Bandini's Ferrari. Bandini drove the 12-cyl 1512 whereas
Surtees preferred to stick with the older 158. The picture I posted
separately clearly shows the two cars and the short "Monaco" nose on
Bandini's car.

I've enlarged build's picture and increased to contrast:

Loading Image...

As you can see I've outlined the number, which I think is 1T, not 17.
The badge could be Ferrari but looks more like Lotus to me, also the
slot in the windshield is surely Lotus?

A more recent shot of what I believe to be a 1512 from almost the same
angle as build's photo shows up quite a few discrepancies:


Loading Image...

Amazing how much time you can waste when you are retired and have plenty
of it!
--
Sir Tim

“Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional”
Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 11:42:23 UTC
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Post by build
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).
The main Monaco support race changed from FJ to F3 in 1964. The 1965 F3
was won by Pete Revson (Lotus 35).


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Sir Tim
2017-08-29 13:03:32 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by build
Practice 1965, as it was wet (confirmed).
It's 1T not 17, no reason given (I tend to agree).
Perhaps a formula Junior, no reason given (I can't match any F1 cars in 65).
The main Monaco support race changed from FJ to F3 in 1964.
Thanks Brian - I was pretty sure there wasn't an FJ race in '65 but
couldn't find a reference.
Post by Brian W Lawrence
The 1965 F3
was won by Pete Revson (Lotus 35).
--
Sir Tim
Sir Tim
2017-08-28 22:46:04 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I
know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Plenty of interesting opinions.

My first reaction was that the driver's face looked a bit like Hailwood but
I don't think the helmet is right.
I enlarged the better of the two pictures on the PistonHeads site and
reckon I can see a Lotus badge, also a faint stripe. The slot at the bottom
of the windshield would also suggest a Lotus.

Assuming that it is the 1965 race I'm inclined to think that it is a
Parnell Lotus-BRM T-car driven by Mike Hailwood or Dickie Attwood in the
wet, Thursday practice.

I assume the picture was taken on the approach to Portier.
--
Sir Tim
build
2017-08-29 02:11:19 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
Post by Bobster
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I
know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
See https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=42&t=789532
Plenty of interesting opinions.
My first reaction was that the driver's face looked a bit like Hailwood but
I don't think the helmet is right.
I enlarged the better of the two pictures on the PistonHeads site and
reckon I can see a Lotus badge, also a faint stripe. The slot at the bottom
of the windshield would also suggest a Lotus.
Assuming that it is the 1965 race I'm inclined to think that it is a
Parnell Lotus-BRM T-car driven by Mike Hailwood or Dickie Attwood in the
wet, Thursday practice.
I assume the picture was taken on the approach to Portier.
--
Sir Tim
G'day Thanks very much guys.

Sir Tim, you are probably right but I ask this question just in case.

Brian, Brafield, Sir Tim, others. Is it possibly a Lotus formula Junior? I ask because it was suggested it was a Formula Junior on Practice day morning as the '1T' (I'm convinced it is not 17) did not match any F1 cars. However during practice there were anomalies with such things.

Also as noted by others i've also noticed there are differences to the factory Lotus.

BTW, I'm sure it is 1965. Apparently the background identifies the year.

Thanks,
build
Sir Tim
2017-08-29 12:56:32 UTC
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Post by Sir Tim
I assume the picture was taken on the approach to Portier.
Beau Rivage of course, thanks Brian.
--
Sir Tim
a425couple
2017-08-28 16:02:12 UTC
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Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
Lorenzo Bandini in the #17 1965 Ferrari did finish 2nd.
In those days the wet weather visors were often used
an a different than normal helmet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Monaco_Grand_Prix

I'd also suggest you go
Google Images for Monaco GP 1965.
a425couple
2017-08-28 16:59:50 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I
know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
Thanks in anticipation,
build
Lorenzo Bandini in the #17 1965 Ferrari did finish 2nd.
In those days the wet weather visors were often used
an a different than normal helmet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Monaco_Grand_Prix
I'd also suggest you go
Google Images for Monaco GP 1965.
The September 1965 Road & Track has an unusually large
photo spread, that does have 4 pictures of Bandini.
However, none of him were in the wet practice period.

The August 1965 Car and Driver does not have
Bandini in the rain either.
Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-28 18:37:37 UTC
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Post by build
G'day,
I got a bundle of posters at auction for my rusty shed.
http://s411.photobucket.com/user/buildy/media/MonacoOldImage_zpsimkyzx6o.jpg.html
I'm hoping someone can ID the image, I've seen that image around but I know very little about that period.
The car number is either 1T or 17 and it could be a formula Junior during practice?
Year: 1965 (possibly?) ???
Date: ??/??/??
Car: Lotus 25, BRM, etc ???
Driver: Lorenzo Bandini, helmet looks wrong ???
The wet session was the first practice on Thursday afternoon.

If it was 1T it might indicate that the driver was in the spare
car, aka the T-car. #1 was Jack Brabham, Brabham-Climax BT11.

However, the #1 has a white circle background on the nose:


<http://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/jack-brabham-driving-his-brabham-climax-at-the-monaco-grand-news-photo/599808369#jack-brabham-driving-his-brabham-climax-at-the-monaco-grand-prix-in-picture-id599808369>

OTOH this is Bandini in #17:


<https://www.mediastorehouse.com/1965-monaco-grand-prix/print/9924353.html>





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bra
2017-08-28 21:47:45 UTC
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On Monday, August 28, 2017 at 11:37:39 AM UTC-7, Brian Lawrence wrote:


That air-deflector-scoop in the windscreen means Lotus 25 doesn't it, or did any others have it?
Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 07:33:38 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
<https://www.mediastorehouse.com/1965-monaco-grand-prix/print/9924353.html>
The number in the wet session photo is in the exact position and angle
as the Ferrari F1512 of Bandini.


While searching for more, I discovered this:



It's a 105m long live tv coverage of the weekend - I haven't watched it
all yet, but it starts with the Thursday session. Fascinating to hear
Louis Chiron briefing the drivers before the race too.





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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 12:15:03 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
Post by Brian W Lawrence
<https://www.mediastorehouse.com/1965-monaco-grand-prix/print/9924353.html>
The number in the wet session photo is in the exact position and angle
as the Ferrari F1512 of Bandini.
  http://youtu.be/uKb9FixAFjw
It's a 105m long live tv coverage of the weekend - I haven't watched it
all yet, but it starts with the Thursday session. Fascinating to hear
Louis Chiron briefing the drivers before the race too.
MotorSport magazine's report on the race is here:


<http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-1965/32/xxiii-monaco-grand-prix>

This seemed interesting, " The B.R.M. team of Hill and Stewart had three
cars at the circuit; all of the latest type with central exhaust system,
and Ferrari had two V8 cars for Surtees and a flat 12-cylinder car for
Bandini; Surtees having different types of Dunlop tyre on the two
V8-cylinder cars."

I had noticed that the original image posted by build


<Loading Image...>

shows a car with taller rear wheels than the fronts, whereas all other
photos I've seen have 13 inch wheels front & rear (7 inch wide rears,
5.5/6 inch fronts.

Forix has a photo of Surtees, supposedly at Monaco 1965, driving a car
with the 'number' T only - no numeric, just a T.

Also from MotorSport, "To complete the list Hailwood and Attwood had the
Parnell team cars of ex-works Lotus 25 chassis with B.R.M. V8 engines
and Newland gearboxes. From a collection of bits and by fabricating many
parts themselves the team had built up a third car to the same
specification, to be used as a training car and a spare."

So Attwood and Hailwood had a T-car available.



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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 14:34:25 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
<https://www.mediastorehouse.com/1965-monaco-grand-prix/print/9924353.html>
Here's another Bandini photo from Monaco 1965:


<https://www.mediastorehouse.com/lorenzo-bandini-ferrari-1512-monaco-grand/print/10212190.html>

Now, that's #18 which was Surtees #, BUT look at the nose # - it's
got a T forward of the 18, so presumably the spare/T-car.

Obviously a 158 not a 1512.

I can't be cerain whether it's John or Lorenzo driving, but the original
source was MotorSport mag., so they should have known.




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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-29 14:49:48 UTC
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Another Ferrari photo from MON 1965:

<http://home.clara.net/denizen/myfiles/photos05.htm>

Surtees in the 158 T-car.

Many more photos from 1958-69 here:

<http://home.clara.net/denizen/myfiles/old-photos.htm>

Photographer was Chub Pearson.



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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-30 11:02:33 UTC
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As a postscript - I checked the Times Archive for the MON 65 weekend.

There were 3 practice sessions counting for grid positions. A 90m
session on Thursday afternoon, which was wet. All 17 cars ran, but
times were over 5s slower than the 1964 lap record (G Hill, 1'33.9s).
The top 10 were:

G Hill BRM 1'37.1s
L Bandini Ferrari 1'37.5s
B McLaren Cooper 1'38.1s
JY Stewart BRM 1'40.2s
R Attwood Lotus 1'40.7s
R Anderson Brabham 1'40.8s
J Siffert Brabham 1'40.9s
J Bonnier Brabham 1'42.0s
R Ginther Honda 1'42.5s
J Rindt Cooper 1'44.2s

The other 7 were: J Surtees (Ferrari), D Hulme (Brabham), P Hawkins
(Lotus), J Brabham (Brabham), R Bucknum (Honda), F Gardner (Brabham),
M Hailwood (Lotus)

The second session was on Friday morning when the weather was dry.
Stewart and Hill both set new unofficial lap records. Top 10:

Stewart 1'32.9s *
Hill 1'33.1s
Bandini 1'33.2s
Brabham 1'33.9s
Surtees 1'34.0s
Attwood 1'34.5s
Hulme 1'34.8s
McLaren 1'35.9s
Siffert 1'36.6s
Bonnier 1'36.7s

No times given for: Anderson, Ginther, Hawkins, Bucknum, Gardner or
Rindt.

* Best time of 3 sessions

The third session, held on Saturday afternoon, was overall the quickest
of the three. The Times isn't published on Sundays so there is no
report of that session in the Archive. Times are known for many of
the drivers from other sources (in grid order):

Hill 1'32.5s *
Brabham 1'32.8s *
Stewart ?
Bandini 1'33.0s *
Surtees 1'33.2s *
Attwood 1'33.9s *
McLaren 1'34.3s *
Hulme 1'34.5s *
Anderson 1'35.5s *
Siffert 1'36.0s *
Gardner 1'36.0s *
Hailwood 1'36.5s *
Bonnier 1'36.5s *
Hawkins ? [1'37.0s]
Bucknum ? [1'37.0s]
Ginther ? [1'39.7s]
Rindt ? [1'37.5s]

Note: Jochen Rindt set a faster time than Ritchie Ginther, but Honda
were guaranteed two automatic grid slots, so Rindt was excluded as a DNQ.

I'm fairly sure that the 3rd session lasted 60m, but if I read that
somewhere I can't locate it now. There was no standard timetable for
Grands Prix at that time. Following Monaco was the Belgian GP, which
had only two sessions, the first was held









BBC tv showed live coverage of the start (14:30-15:00) and finish
(16:15-16:45), and a further report from 17:15 to 17:35.






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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-30 11:07:33 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
I'm fairly sure that the 3rd session lasted 60m, but if I read that
somewhere I can't locate it now. There was no standard timetable for
Grands Prix at that time. Following Monaco was the Belgian GP, which
had only two sessions, the first was held
Not quite sure how I sent that before I finished :-)

... on Friday evening and lasted two hours. The British GP had 3
sessions - 2 on Thu morning & late afternoon, and another on Fri
morning - race was on Sat.

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Brian W Lawrence
2017-08-30 12:17:02 UTC
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Post by Brian W Lawrence
I'm fairly sure that the 3rd session lasted 60m, but if I read that
somewhere I can't locate it now.
The place I forgot to check was the MotorSport Archive - both the
2nd and 3rd sessions lasted just 60m.

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