Discussion:
FIA pushing for PU performance equality
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m***@gmail.com
2018-02-25 09:19:22 UTC
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/134507/new-push-to-prevent-customer-engine-inequality

we will expect all power units supplied by the same manufacturer to be:

"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.

"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the following, they should be:

"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being operated in precisely the same way.

"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."

Which seems to me will not achieve very much at all. There was an interesting piece released last year in which a an ex Lotus engineer described the goings on at Spa one year when Merc realised that Lotus might be able to take places away from Red Bull. The key point in that piece is that a Merc customer gets Merc engineers in their pit monitoring the PUs and telling you what modes you can use. The engineer didn't say "this is a special mode" or "we have kept ths mode from you", but he did say "use this mode" and suddenly the car started going significantly quicker.

So allowing the team to have identical software doesn't bother the PU suppliers at all, because the customer team won't know what the different modes are or even what modes are available.
bra
2018-02-25 16:08:40 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team, because that would not be fair."
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-26 03:21:45 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team, because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in other areas.
Edmund
2018-02-26 07:55:51 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still
stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in other
areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?

Edmund
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2018-02-26 08:26:04 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still
stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in other
areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?
See above. I think it's possible that everybody gets the same PU, but not everybody gets the same performance. I think that's to do with Merc engineers telling the teams what they can and cannot do. AFAIK all Merc customers, irrespective of the any stickers on their cars, run the same fuel and oil.
Edmund
2018-02-26 09:19:12 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still
stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in
other areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?
See above. I think it's possible that everybody gets the same PU, but
not everybody gets the same performance. I think that's to do with Merc
engineers telling the teams what they can and cannot do. AFAIK all Merc
customers, irrespective of the any stickers on their cars, run the same
fuel and oil.
Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.

Edmund
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2018-02-26 09:59:54 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still
stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in
other areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?
See above. I think it's possible that everybody gets the same PU, but
not everybody gets the same performance. I think that's to do with Merc
engineers telling the teams what they can and cannot do. AFAIK all Merc
customers, irrespective of the any stickers on their cars, run the same
fuel and oil.
Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the Honda deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they will offer you the exact same PU, but it won't be designed for your car - you will have to adapt to it.

That is why Ron Dennis didn't want to be anybody's customer, and why Red Bull will go for a deal that gives them a bespoke engine if they get such an offer.

What FIA are wanting to do here will reduce the performance gap, but not completely close it. Because if you are a Merc customer, to get on to truly equal footing you'd need similar resources - and neither Williams nor Force India have those. They don't have the facilities and they don't have the money to set up and run those facilities.
Edmund
2018-02-26 11:48:41 UTC
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we will expect all power units supplied by the same
"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will
still stay top because they have the resources and will spend
those in other areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?
See above. I think it's possible that everybody gets the same PU, but
not everybody gets the same performance. I think that's to do with
Merc engineers telling the teams what they can and cannot do. AFAIK
all Merc customers, irrespective of the any stickers on their cars,
run the same fuel and oil.
Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the Honda
deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they will offer you
the exact same PU,
I do not believe that at all.

Edmund
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2018-02-26 15:06:21 UTC
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Post by Edmund
Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the Honda
deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they will offer you
the exact same PU,
I do not believe that at all.
Edmund
What don't you believe?

It is obvious that Merc will only listen to one team when they are making design decisions about their PU. Ditto Ferrari. Ditto Renault.

And that's at least partly why Ronzo took McLaren to Honda. With Honda, McLaren could steer the design towards what suited them from a packaging point of view. McLaren had gone this path before with the Tag motor in the 80, they couldn't build and engine, but they could get an engine made to their requirement.
Edmund
2018-02-26 15:14:41 UTC
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Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the Honda
deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they will offer
you the exact same PU,
I do not believe that at all.
Edmund
What don't you believe?
I do not believe the Merc customer PU's are identical to their own PU.

Edmund
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2018-02-26 15:28:08 UTC
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Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the Honda
deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they will offer
you the exact same PU,
I do not believe that at all.
Edmund
What don't you believe?
I do not believe the Merc customer PU's are identical to their own PU.
Edmund
Well, it has happened that customer teams get the latest upgrade a race later, but other than that I rather think they are the same - and the article posted here says that already last year FIA could and did check that they physically the same. But
a) the merc PU is designed for a Merc, not for any other car
b) it may well be that Merc supply the same PU to customers, but withhold some information about operating it - which would give the same affect, I suppose.
Edmund
2018-02-26 17:00:05 UTC
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Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same
PU but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the
same performance as the Mercedes team.
And they never will. Which is part of why McLaren went for the
Honda deal. Merc will build the PU to suit their car. Then they
will offer you the exact same PU,
I do not believe that at all.
Edmund
What don't you believe?
I do not believe the Merc customer PU's are identical to their own PU.
Edmund
Well, it has happened that customer teams get the latest upgrade a race
later, but other than that I rather think they are the same - and the
article posted here says that already last year FIA could and did check
that they physically the same. But a) the merc PU is designed for a
Merc, not for any other car b) it may well be that Merc supply the same
PU to customers, but withhold some information about operating it -
which would give the same affect, I suppose.
If such stories satisfy the FIA fine with me but I don't believe it.

Edmund
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2018-02-26 15:04:33 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other team,
because that would not be fair."
Not quite, but they are trying to close the gap. Top teams will still
stay top because they have the resources and will spend those in
other areas.
Anyone really believe customer teams get the same power as Merc?
Anyone?
See above. I think it's possible that everybody gets the same PU, but
not everybody gets the same performance. I think that's to do with Merc
engineers telling the teams what they can and cannot do. AFAIK all Merc
customers, irrespective of the any stickers on their cars, run the same
fuel and oil.
Everything is possible and all costumer teams might have the same PU
but you can bet your house none of the costumer teams have the same
performance as the Mercedes team.
Edmund
G'day Ed,
Mercedes are not alone in that. I doubt Ferrari's customers who get the current engine get the same performance.

Then there is Renault who appear to give customers equal engines.

beers,
build
~misfit~
2018-02-26 10:41:49 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other
team, because that would not be fair."
I note rather cynically that this wasn't mentioned or bought in while
Ferrari were supplying Sauber with last years PU.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-26 11:09:29 UTC
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"i) Identical according to the dossier for each team.
"and, unless a team informs us that they have declined any of the
"ii) Run with identical software and must be capable of being
operated in precisely the same way.
"iii) Run with identical specifications of oil and fuel."
"We do NOT expect any team to attempt to go faster than any other
team, because that would not be fair."
I note rather cynically that this wasn't mentioned or bought in while
Ferrari were supplying Sauber with last years PU.
That was an agreed deal between the two. Sauber would get the end of 2016 spec Ferrari PU, so (the theory went) reliability early on but a drop off in pace as their PU would not be developed. I presume there was a cost implication in this.

Does this new regulation rule out such a deal? What if it went ahead but you had to get everything, including all the operating modes, that the works team had the year before?

Though I would imagine that all the PUs are revised this year, and that a 2017 spec PU would have trouble lasting 7 races.
b***@topmail.co.nz
2018-02-28 09:00:00 UTC
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So allowing the team to have identical software doesn't bother the PU suppliers at all, because the customer team won't know what the different modes are or even what modes are available.
They could get somebody to look for "easter eggs". Preferably done with a
retired engine, just in case.
larkim
2018-02-28 09:36:25 UTC
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So allowing the team to have identical software doesn't bother the PU suppliers at all, because the customer team won't know what the different modes are or even what modes are available.
They could get somebody to look for "easter eggs". Preferably done with a
retired engine, just in case.
How does the PU interact with the standard ECU? Presumably if the PU can
only be interfaced with via the ECU then anything else "tricky" that can
done with the combination is done at a more mechanical level?

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