Discussion:
F1 grid girl speaks: 'Not one of us think it’s sexist, exploitative or demeaning'
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News
2018-02-01 17:24:35 UTC
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Not that anyone asked them...

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-01 17:59:40 UTC
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There is no single POV around these matters.

In SA it is becoming more common to have female commentators. For some sports and situations more than others. The panel that does the lead in to F1 broadcasts is now led by a woman. We get women calling international cricket matches on the radio (led by Natalie Germanus).

Now, you'd think this would be seen as progress and creating a more level playing field, but a mate of mine's daughter (married, with kids, so not herself a nipper) will have none of it. She says women know nothing about sport, can never know nothing about it, and thus have no part telling others about it and acting like they do know.

White South Africans my age will remember that during apartheid it was always possible to get hold of a black man who would tell you that they liked being able to do their own thing in their own way on their own land and the white man was very nice to them.

Now, whatever you think of these positions, do not imagine that they are the only opinion that anybody might hold, do not imagine that they speak for everybody.

As I pointed out earlier today, what FOM (not FIA) are doing is quite specific, possibly quite limited and leaves several doors still open.

And the person you quote here doesnt seem to be doing quite the same job that is being done away with in F1.

Let's consider the words of another woman in F1 : "Women are not here just to be seen, we are here to be seen and heard and for me that is the most important part of the promo girl debate. We fought to be able to vote, to be able to work, to be able to speak freely -- so let's use that freedom to better the chances of future generations of girls and women.... Give these girls a voice and suddenly I don't have such an issue with their use. Let them become brand ambassadors and not just mute, pretty things to be stared at, but as the girls are currently used they don't have a personality, they don't have any freedom to interact with either the crowds or the stars of the show, the drivers. They are just stood holding a flag pole, looking gorgeous.

"Surely we have moved on from women just having to look good to get on in life? Sure it must help to have 36DD's and a waist synched in naturally rather than with spanks and bum lifting leggings but is the message we send out to the next generation really one that says men are the daredevil drivers while women are the trophy girls?"

Jennie Gow, writing for ESPN.
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22282846/why-f1-made-right-decision-grid-girls

What she's saying she finds acceptable sounds a lot like what the person you quote does. She doesnt just stand on her mark with a number, not engaging with anybody. She's a representative.

The difference, i think, is that one role, the one that F1 are getting rid of is passive and purely decorative. The other is active and involves communication and the representative has a voice and is allowed to be a person.

There's also the growing female presence in F1. Its not a man's man's world so much. Roles are changing. The world is changing.

In an F1 in which Claire Williams runs a team on race weekends, Ruth Buscombe makes strategy calls and Merc and Red Bull have both had woman engineers on the podium, having women hanging around like some sort of dumb decoration, standing where they're told, clapping when they're told, gets increasingly incongruous.
bra
2018-02-01 23:23:53 UTC
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On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 9:59:42 AM UTC-8, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> There is no single POV around these matters.

>
> There's also the growing female presence in F1. Its not a man's man's world so much. Roles are changing. The world is changing.
>
> In an F1 in which Claire Williams runs a team on race weekends, Ruth Buscombe makes strategy calls and Merc and Red Bull have both had woman engineers on the podium, having women hanging around like some sort of dumb decoration, standing where they're told, clapping when they're told, gets increasingly incongruous.

Yes, and yes. Change is always resisted as it is pushed forward. I feel that the world tends towards betterment, that as George Bernard Shaw said, there is a kind of "evolutionary instinct" at work, easing us towards being better humans than we were. In one of his famous Prefaces, he has this enormous but clear and telling sentence about the labour of moving forward:

--- "That there are forces at work which use individuals for purposes far transcending the purpose of keeping these individuals alive and prosperous and respectable and safe and happy in the middle station in life, which is all any good bourgeois can reasonably require, is established by the fact that men will, in the pursuit of knowledge and of social readjustments for which they will not be a penny the better, and are indeed often many pence the worse, face poverty, infamy, exile, imprisonment, dreadful hardship, and death. ---"
keithr0
2018-02-02 10:21:57 UTC
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On 2/2/2018 3:59 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> There is no single POV around these matters.
>
> In SA it is becoming more common to have female commentators. For some sports and situations more than others. The panel that does the lead in to F1 broadcasts is now led by a woman. We get women calling international cricket matches on the radio (led by Natalie Germanus).
>
> Now, you'd think this would be seen as progress and creating a more level playing field, but a mate of mine's daughter (married, with kids, so not herself a nipper) will have none of it. She says women know nothing about sport, can never know nothing about it, and thus have no part telling others about it and acting like they do know.
>
> White South Africans my age will remember that during apartheid it was always possible to get hold of a black man who would tell you that they liked being able to do their own thing in their own way on their own land and the white man was very nice to them.

Not quite the same thing, black South Africans were in a situation not
of their making, presumably some accepted it and chose to make the best
of what they had. AFAIK, nobody forces women to be pit babes, maybe they
do it for the money or the attention but they are in a situation of
their own choosing.

That said, I'd like to see more women in active positions in F1. On the
technical side, there is no reason that they couldn't perform as well as
or better than men. As drivers though I'm not so sure, given the
physical forces involved in modern F1 cars, I feel that men will usually
have the edge over them.
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-02 10:46:51 UTC
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On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:22:04 UTC+2, keithr0 wrote:
> On 2/2/2018 3:59 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > There is no single POV around these matters.
> >
> > In SA it is becoming more common to have female commentators. For some sports and situations more than others. The panel that does the lead in to F1 broadcasts is now led by a woman. We get women calling international cricket matches on the radio (led by Natalie Germanus).
> >
> > Now, you'd think this would be seen as progress and creating a more level playing field, but a mate of mine's daughter (married, with kids, so not herself a nipper) will have none of it. She says women know nothing about sport, can never know nothing about it, and thus have no part telling others about it and acting like they do know.
> >
> > White South Africans my age will remember that during apartheid it was always possible to get hold of a black man who would tell you that they liked being able to do their own thing in their own way on their own land and the white man was very nice to them.
>
> Not quite the same thing, black South Africans were in a situation not
> of their making, presumably some accepted it and chose to make the best
> of what they had. AFAIK, nobody forces women to be pit babes, maybe they
> do it for the money or the attention but they are in a situation of
> their own choosing.

My point was that there are always lots of different voices, and we err in thinking that a voice we've heard (or sought out) speaks authentically for all members of whatever group.

>
> That said, I'd like to see more women in active positions in F1. On the
> technical side, there is no reason that they couldn't perform as well as
> or better than men. As drivers though I'm not so sure, given the
> physical forces involved in modern F1 cars, I feel that men will usually
> have the edge over them.

Red Bull and Merc have both put female members of their engineering staff on podiums. Ruth Buscombe made the famous strategy call that got Haas a good haul of points in their first race. Shell used to have a woman looking after Ferrari's fuel and lubricants (and may still do).

Women do work actively in F1, and in increasing numbers.

The driving issue... they really can't do it? Danica Patrick drove in Indy and NASCAR. You'd think she can withstand G forces. The cars have power steering these days.
keithr0
2018-02-03 04:27:40 UTC
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On 2/2/2018 8:46 PM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:22:04 UTC+2, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 2/2/2018 3:59 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>> There is no single POV around these matters.
>>>
>>> In SA it is becoming more common to have female commentators. For some sports and situations more than others. The panel that does the lead in to F1 broadcasts is now led by a woman. We get women calling international cricket matches on the radio (led by Natalie Germanus).
>>>
>>> Now, you'd think this would be seen as progress and creating a more level playing field, but a mate of mine's daughter (married, with kids, so not herself a nipper) will have none of it. She says women know nothing about sport, can never know nothing about it, and thus have no part telling others about it and acting like they do know.
>>>
>>> White South Africans my age will remember that during apartheid it was always possible to get hold of a black man who would tell you that they liked being able to do their own thing in their own way on their own land and the white man was very nice to them.
>>
>> Not quite the same thing, black South Africans were in a situation not
>> of their making, presumably some accepted it and chose to make the best
>> of what they had. AFAIK, nobody forces women to be pit babes, maybe they
>> do it for the money or the attention but they are in a situation of
>> their own choosing.
>
> My point was that there are always lots of different voices, and we err in thinking that a voice we've heard (or sought out) speaks authentically for all members of whatever group.

My point was that some have a choice others do not, and the girls are
among those who have that choice.
>
>>
>> That said, I'd like to see more women in active positions in F1. On the
>> technical side, there is no reason that they couldn't perform as well as
>> or better than men. As drivers though I'm not so sure, given the
>> physical forces involved in modern F1 cars, I feel that men will usually
>> have the edge over them.
>
> Red Bull and Merc have both put female members of their engineering staff on podiums. Ruth Buscombe made the famous strategy call that got Haas a good haul of points in their first race. Shell used to have a woman looking after Ferrari's fuel and lubricants (and may still do).
>
> Women do work actively in F1, and in increasing numbers.

Increasing but off a very low base.
>
> The driving issue... they really can't do it? Danica Patrick drove in Indy and NASCAR. You'd think she can withstand G forces. The cars have power steering these days.
>
Possibly, but I see pictures of the drivers in the gym with large
weights attached to their heads to build up the neck muscles quite apart
from the other continuous training needed these days.
m***@gmail.com
2018-02-03 04:56:47 UTC
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On Saturday, 3 February 2018 06:27:44 UTC+2, keithr0 wrote:
> On 2/2/2018 8:46 PM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, 2 February 2018 12:22:04 UTC+2, keithr0 wrote:
> >> On 2/2/2018 3:59 AM, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> There is no single POV around these matters.
> >>>
> >>> In SA it is becoming more common to have female commentators. For some sports and situations more than others. The panel that does the lead in to F1 broadcasts is now led by a woman. We get women calling international cricket matches on the radio (led by Natalie Germanus).
> >>>
> >>> Now, you'd think this would be seen as progress and creating a more level playing field, but a mate of mine's daughter (married, with kids, so not herself a nipper) will have none of it. She says women know nothing about sport, can never know nothing about it, and thus have no part telling others about it and acting like they do know.
> >>>
> >>> White South Africans my age will remember that during apartheid it was always possible to get hold of a black man who would tell you that they liked being able to do their own thing in their own way on their own land and the white man was very nice to them.
> >>
> >> Not quite the same thing, black South Africans were in a situation not
> >> of their making, presumably some accepted it and chose to make the best
> >> of what they had. AFAIK, nobody forces women to be pit babes, maybe they
> >> do it for the money or the attention but they are in a situation of
> >> their own choosing.
> >
> > My point was that there are always lots of different voices, and we err in thinking that a voice we've heard (or sought out) speaks authentically for all members of whatever group.
>
> My point was that some have a choice others do not, and the girls are
> among those who have that choice.

And self interest, of course. That's valid to a degree, of course. You can't expect Turkeys to vote for Christmas. But still, my point is that we shouldn't think that the voice of some professional models - who may have been fed false information - is not the only voice and that they speak for everybody else.
> >
> >>
> >> That said, I'd like to see more women in active positions in F1. On the
> >> technical side, there is no reason that they couldn't perform as well as
> >> or better than men. As drivers though I'm not so sure, given the
> >> physical forces involved in modern F1 cars, I feel that men will usually
> >> have the edge over them.
> >
> > Red Bull and Merc have both put female members of their engineering staff on podiums. Ruth Buscombe made the famous strategy call that got Haas a good haul of points in their first race. Shell used to have a woman looking after Ferrari's fuel and lubricants (and may still do).
> >
> > Women do work actively in F1, and in increasing numbers.
>
> Increasing but off a very low base.
Well, the base was zero. That doesn't mean that a positive change isn't taking place. And it reflects other changes too - if Merc hire a woman to work in their aerodynamics team, that means that women are taking suitable courses at university, and that those courses are open to them. When I studied extraction metallurgy back in the 70s, there wasn't a single woman student in the school that taught that.
> >
> > The driving issue... they really can't do it? Danica Patrick drove in Indy and NASCAR. You'd think she can withstand G forces. The cars have power steering these days.
> >
> Possibly, but I see pictures of the drivers in the gym with large
> weights attached to their heads to build up the neck muscles quite apart
> from the other continuous training needed these days.
Yes, but do you think Danica Patrick or Simona de Silvestra or Pippa Mann didn't have to do gym training to race indy cars? I remember one journo, Saward I think, talking about shaking hands with Simona de Silvestro. He said you got a big surprise because she'd been doing a lot of gym work and had a really strong grip.
bra
2018-02-03 16:14:08 UTC
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On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 8:56:49 PM UTC-8, ***@gmail.com wrote:

. You can't expect Turkeys to vote for Christmas.

I always remember in Gershon Legman's study of dirty jokes, his great line:
"Women dislike dirty jokes for the same reason that calves hate cookbooks."
larkim
2018-02-02 12:21:47 UTC
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On Thursday, 1 February 2018 17:24:37 UTC, News wrote:
> Not that anyone asked them...
>
> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning

Don't think you'd get many drug dealers to want legalisation of class A
substances either.

Someone who has made their career out of looking glamourous and taking
advantage of the fact that we have a society which likes to objectify
women is in a conflict of interest when their chosen career path might be
being compromised. I would fully expect most women models who are engaged
to do this sort of thing to be in favour - it pays the bills, gets them on
TV, etc etc. That doesn't mean that it isn't an outdated concept which is
out of step with broader concepts of gender equality and value judgements
made on the basis of substance rather than appearance.
News
2018-02-02 13:06:41 UTC
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On 2/2/2018 7:21 AM, larkim wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 February 2018 17:24:37 UTC, News wrote:
>> Not that anyone asked them...
>>
>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning
>
> Don't think you'd get many drug dealers to want legalisation of class A
> substances either.
>
> Someone who has made their career out of looking glamourous and taking
> advantage of the fact that we have a society which likes to objectify
> women is in a conflict of interest when their chosen career path might be
> being compromised. I would fully expect most women models who are engaged
> to do this sort of thing to be in favour - it pays the bills, gets them on
> TV, etc etc. That doesn't mean that it isn't an outdated concept which is
> out of step with broader concepts of gender equality and value judgements
> made on the basis of substance rather than appearance.
>

So, turn off the telly, or look away. Trigger imagery...
~misfit~
2018-02-03 03:43:00 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet larkim wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 February 2018 17:24:37 UTC, News wrote:
>> Not that anyone asked them...
>>
>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning
>
> Don't think you'd get many drug dealers to want legalisation of class
> A substances either.
>
> Someone who has made their career out of looking glamourous and taking
> advantage of the fact that we have a society which likes to objectify
> women is in a conflict of interest when their chosen career path
> might be being compromised. I would fully expect most women models
> who are engaged to do this sort of thing to be in favour - it pays
> the bills, gets them on TV, etc etc. That doesn't mean that it isn't
> an outdated concept which is out of step with broader concepts of
> gender equality and value judgements made on the basis of substance
> rather than appearance.

So same with male bodybuilders etc. then? All greased up and in skimpy
underwear....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Calum
2018-02-02 13:37:46 UTC
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On 01/02/2018 17:24, News wrote:
> Not that anyone asked them...
>
> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-grid-girl-speaks-not-one-us-think-its-sexist-exploitative-or-demeaning

Plenty of women disagreed with the suffragettes at the time, too.
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