Discussion:
Party crashers: Red Bull F1 team wants a ban on Mercedes' special engine mode,'Party mode' gave Mercedes a qualifying advantage in Australia
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News
2018-04-02 01:37:22 UTC
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As discussed.

Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
m***@gmail.com
2018-04-02 02:50:01 UTC
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On Monday, 2 April 2018 03:37:24 UTC+2, News wrote:
> As discussed.
>
> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!

Hamilton denied using it on his fast run. He didn't say it wasn't there.
build
2018-04-03 11:18:26 UTC
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On Monday, 2 April 2018 12:50:03 UTC+10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 2 April 2018 03:37:24 UTC+2, News wrote:
> > As discussed.
> >
> > Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!
>
> Hamilton denied using it on his fast run. He didn't say it wasn't there.

Also Mercedes boss Toto Wolff admitted: "There is a party mode, it's switched on at the start of Q3."

So it is there and it was used.
geoff
2018-04-03 11:31:28 UTC
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On 3/04/2018 11:18 PM, build wrote:
> On Monday, 2 April 2018 12:50:03 UTC+10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, 2 April 2018 03:37:24 UTC+2, News wrote:
>>> As discussed.
>>>
>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!
>>
>> Hamilton denied using it on his fast run. He didn't say it wasn't there.
>
> Also Mercedes boss Toto Wolff admitted: "There is a party mode, it's switched on at the start of Q3."
>
> So it is there and it was used.
>


Which doesn't mean that it was anything over and above the normal set of
engine modes available. Presumably at the top end of them. A bit like
every other team I would imagine. Yawn.

geoff
Dan the Man
2018-04-03 16:34:12 UTC
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On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:31:34 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
> On 3/04/2018 11:18 PM, build wrote:
> > On Monday, 2 April 2018 12:50:03 UTC+10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, 2 April 2018 03:37:24 UTC+2, News wrote:
> >>> As discussed.
> >>>
> >>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!
> >>
> >> Hamilton denied using it on his fast run. He didn't say it wasn't there.
> >
> > Also Mercedes boss Toto Wolff admitted: "There is a party mode, it's switched on at the start of Q3."
> >
> > So it is there and it was used.
> >
>
>
> Which doesn't mean that it was anything over and above the normal set of
> engine modes available. Presumably at the top end of them. A bit like
> every other team I would imagine. Yawn.
>
> geoff

And because Merc's works better, everyone else is having a hissy.
Alan Baker
2018-04-03 16:38:24 UTC
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On 2018-04-03 9:34 AM, Dan the Man wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 7:31:34 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
>> On 3/04/2018 11:18 PM, build wrote:
>>> On Monday, 2 April 2018 12:50:03 UTC+10, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 2 April 2018 03:37:24 UTC+2, News wrote:
>>>>> As discussed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!
>>>>
>>>> Hamilton denied using it on his fast run. He didn't say it wasn't there.
>>>
>>> Also Mercedes boss Toto Wolff admitted: "There is a party mode, it's switched on at the start of Q3."
>>>
>>> So it is there and it was used.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Which doesn't mean that it was anything over and above the normal set of
>> engine modes available. Presumably at the top end of them. A bit like
>> every other team I would imagine. Yawn.
>>
>> geoff
>
> And because Merc's works better, everyone else is having a hissy.
>

When has that ever not been the way of things?

:-)
Edmund
2018-04-02 08:43:14 UTC
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On Sun, 01 Apr 2018 21:37:22 -0400, News wrote:

> As discussed.
>
> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it. OOPS!
>
> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-
wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR

Renault wants to freeze engine development until a yet again other Engine
Formula will be in effect. ( 2021 ).
So since they cannot compete with Merc they want to stop all effort in
catching up, concentrating on the future and even then they want an
obligated 3% engine rule, whatever that is suppose to mean.

They seem to think F1 is not yet regulated to death enough and more
regulation is needed to make it even more like a Renault Clio race.
I wonder why it isn't possible to overtake another car anymore.
Obligated wrong tyres aren't enough
Obligated parachutes are not enough
The dwarfs oil sprinklers cannot be far away.

Edmund
~misfit~
2018-04-02 23:00:05 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
> As discussed.
>
> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
> OOPS!
> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR

Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the phrase was
coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the highest of many engine
modes and is nothing special (hence Haimlton's denial of a special mode).
All Toto confirmed was that Hamilton called the high setting 'party mode' on
the radio and in one interview. All manufacturers have various settings but
Mercedes did the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of sour grapes
and does F1 no favours.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2018-04-03 06:48:21 UTC
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On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 5:00:10 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> Horner's a whiney little bitch.

As you, 24/7/365.
keefy
2018-04-03 19:35:42 UTC
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On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>> As discussed.
>>
>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>> OOPS!
>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>
> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the phrase was
> coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the highest of many engine
> modes and is nothing special (hence Haimlton's denial of a special mode).
> All Toto confirmed was that Hamilton called the high setting 'party mode' on
> the radio and in one interview. All manufacturers have various settings but
> Mercedes did the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
> powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of sour grapes
> and does F1 no favours.
>
These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge, but
we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that all modes
are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have about ICEs
tells me that each different one requires different fuel and ignition
mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to ERS? But would
those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?
~misfit~
2018-04-04 00:22:13 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet keefy wrote:
> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>> As discussed.
>>>
>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>> OOPS!
>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>
>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the
>> highest of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence
>> Haimlton's denial of a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that
>> Hamilton called the high setting 'party mode' on the radio and in
>> one interview. All manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes
>> did the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
>> powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of
>> sour grapes and does F1 no favours.
> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
> consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
> Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge,
> but we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that
> all modes are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have
> about ICEs tells me that each different one requires different fuel
> and ignition mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to
> ERS? But would those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?

Yes yes and yes. They have standard ECUs but the software / firmware that
the Mercedes PUs run on that ECu is different to what the Ferraris run (for
instance). (Previous to this year the software was different between teams
also, supplied with the PU but not the same as the manufacturer ran. This
means that full beans for Mercedes (aka "party mode") is exactly the same as
full beans for Williams.)

The settimgs that can be changed are, as you say fuel and ignition. However
there are also boost levels and how much of the electrical energy is used to
pre-spool the turbo to keep boost up as opposed to delivered to the back
wheels via the MGU-K. Also there is little harvesting (and it is done
differently) on a flying qually lap. They start the lap with a full ES so
over that lap they effectively have considerably more power than the PU can
sustain over a race at their disposal. Etc.

This explains it quite well; https://youtu.be/bCNf0JzHtME
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
keefy
2018-04-05 22:01:45 UTC
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On 04/04/18 02:22, ~misfit~ wrote:
> Once upon a time on usenet keefy wrote:
>> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>>> As discussed.
>>>>
>>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>>> OOPS!
>>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>>
>>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the
>>> highest of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence
>>> Haimlton's denial of a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that
>>> Hamilton called the high setting 'party mode' on the radio and in
>>> one interview. All manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes
>>> did the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
>>> powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of
>>> sour grapes and does F1 no favours.
>> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
>> consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
>> Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge,
>> but we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that
>> all modes are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have
>> about ICEs tells me that each different one requires different fuel
>> and ignition mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to
>> ERS? But would those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?
>
> Yes yes and yes. They have standard ECUs but the software / firmware that
> the Mercedes PUs run on that ECu is different to what the Ferraris run (for
> instance). (Previous to this year the software was different between teams
> also, supplied with the PU but not the same as the manufacturer ran. This
> means that full beans for Mercedes (aka "party mode") is exactly the same as
> full beans for Williams.)
>
> The settimgs that can be changed are, as you say fuel and ignition. However
> there are also boost levels and how much of the electrical energy is used to
> pre-spool the turbo to keep boost up as opposed to delivered to the back
> wheels via the MGU-K. Also there is little harvesting (and it is done
> differently) on a flying qually lap. They start the lap with a full ES so
> over that lap they effectively have considerably more power than the PU can
> sustain over a race at their disposal. Etc.
>
> This explains it quite well; https://youtu.be/bCNf0JzHtME
>
Thank you, that has filled in some gaps for me. I suspected but did not
know that the PU manufacturers can install their own software to the
ECU. So it sounds like it is only the hardware of the ECU that is standard.
~misfit~
2018-04-06 00:35:29 UTC
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Once upon a time on usenet keefy wrote:
> On 04/04/18 02:22, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> Once upon a time on usenet keefy wrote:
>>> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>>>> As discussed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>>>> OOPS!
>>>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>>>
>>>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>>>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the
>>>> highest of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence
>>>> Haimlton's denial of a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that
>>>> Hamilton called the high setting 'party mode' on the radio and in
>>>> one interview. All manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes
>>>> did the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
>>>> powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of
>>>> sour grapes and does F1 no favours.
>>> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they
>>> actually consist of I think they would be different fuel and
>>> ignition mappings. Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the
>>> best of my knowledge, but we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So
>>> that would suggest that all modes are available to all teams. And
>>> yet the knowledge I have about ICEs tells me that each different
>>> one requires different fuel and ignition mappings anyway. So what
>>> am I missing? Is it related to ERS? But would those settings not be
>>> stored within the ECU as well?
>>
>> Yes yes and yes. They have standard ECUs but the software / firmware
>> that the Mercedes PUs run on that ECu is different to what the
>> Ferraris run (for instance). (Previous to this year the software was
>> different between teams also, supplied with the PU but not the same
>> as the manufacturer ran. This means that full beans for Mercedes
>> (aka "party mode") is exactly the same as full beans for Williams.)
>>
>> The settimgs that can be changed are, as you say fuel and ignition.
>> However there are also boost levels and how much of the electrical
>> energy is used to pre-spool the turbo to keep boost up as opposed to
>> delivered to the back wheels via the MGU-K. Also there is little
>> harvesting (and it is done differently) on a flying qually lap. They
>> start the lap with a full ES so over that lap they effectively have
>> considerably more power than the PU can sustain over a race at their
>> disposal. Etc. This explains it quite well; https://youtu.be/bCNf0JzHtME
>>
> Thank you, that has filled in some gaps for me.

You're welcome.

> I suspected but did not know that the PU manufacturers can install
> their own software to the ECU. So it sounds like it is only the hardware
> of the ECU that is standard.

Exactly.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Alister
2018-04-04 09:35:22 UTC
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On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 21:35:42 +0200, keefy wrote:

> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>> As discussed.
>>>
>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>> OOPS!
>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-
team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>
>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the highest
>> of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence Haimlton's denial of
>> a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that Hamilton called the high
>> setting 'party mode' on the radio and in one interview. All
>> manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes did the best job of
>> building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most powerful PU they want to
>> cripple it. The whole article smacks of sour grapes and does F1 no
>> favours.
>>
> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
> consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
> Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge, but
> we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that all modes
> are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have about ICEs
> tells me that each different one requires different fuel and ignition
> mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to ERS? But would
> those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?

The ECU is standard but the teams can program their own engine maps.

this is Mainly to prevent teams implementing things such as "Option 13"



--
The early worm gets the bird.
keefy
2018-04-05 22:04:09 UTC
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On 04/04/18 11:35, Alister wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 21:35:42 +0200, keefy wrote:
>
>> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>>> As discussed.
>>>>
>>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>>> OOPS!
>>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-
> team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>>
>>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the highest
>>> of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence Haimlton's denial of
>>> a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that Hamilton called the high
>>> setting 'party mode' on the radio and in one interview. All
>>> manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes did the best job of
>>> building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most powerful PU they want to
>>> cripple it. The whole article smacks of sour grapes and does F1 no
>>> favours.
>>>
>> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
>> consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
>> Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge, but
>> we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that all modes
>> are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have about ICEs
>> tells me that each different one requires different fuel and ignition
>> mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to ERS? But would
>> those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?
>
> The ECU is standard but the teams can program their own engine maps.
>
> this is Mainly to prevent teams implementing things such as "Option 13"
>
>
>
Option 13? What is that? I thought the reason for a standard ECU was an
attempt at reducing cost introduced by FIA back in Max Mosley's time.
Alister
2018-04-06 09:51:12 UTC
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On Fri, 06 Apr 2018 00:04:09 +0200, keefy wrote:

> On 04/04/18 11:35, Alister wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 21:35:42 +0200, keefy wrote:
>>
>>> On 03/04/18 01:00, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> Once upon a time on usenet News wrote:
>>>>> As discussed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the claim HAM denied having it, but Toto confirms having it.
>>>>> OOPS!
>>>>> http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/party-crashers-red-bull-f1-
>> team-wants-ban-mercedes-special-engine-mode#ixzz5BTV411WR
>>>>
>>>> Horner's a whiney little bitch. "It", so called 'party mode' (the
>>>> phrase was coined by Hamilton, not Horner / RBR) is simply the
>>>> highest of many engine modes and is nothing special (hence Haimlton's
>>>> denial of a special mode). All Toto confirmed was that Hamilton
>>>> called the high setting 'party mode' on the radio and in one
>>>> interview. All manufacturers have various settings but Mercedes did
>>>> the best job of building a PU. Because RBR don't have the most
>>>> powerful PU they want to cripple it. The whole article smacks of sour
>>>> grapes and does F1 no favours.
>>>>
>>> These modes confuse me. Having never heard or read what they actually
>>> consist of I think they would be different fuel and ignition mappings.
>>> Such data is normally stored in the ECU to the best of my knowledge,
>>> but we are told F1 uses a standard ECU. So that would suggest that all
>>> modes are available to all teams. And yet the knowledge I have about
>>> ICEs tells me that each different one requires different fuel and
>>> ignition mappings anyway. So what am I missing? Is it related to ERS?
>>> But would those settings not be stored within the ECU as well?
>>
>> The ECU is standard but the teams can program their own engine maps.
>>
>> this is Mainly to prevent teams implementing things such as "Option 13"
>>
>>
>>
> Option 13? What is that? I thought the reason for a standard ECU was an
> attempt at reducing cost introduced by FIA back in Max Mosley's time.

It is a well known (now) suspected cheat by Benetton. when traction
control was banned they did not remove their code but instead disabled it
there was a hidden sequence that could be used to re-activate it from the
drivers steering wheel - option 13 in a menu that only appeared to go to
10.
Easy to find lots of information using goggle (although none of it 100%
confirmed as is the nature of these things)




--
I program, therefore I am.
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