Discussion:
And now RBR plan to drop Renault in favour of Honda...
(too old to reply)
larkim
2017-09-14 14:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
According to the BBC...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779

Makes sense, if one presumes Honda will eventually work and Renault will
fail.

In which case, does McLaren's switch look daft?

Starting from today, with the track record over the last three years, would
you bet on Renault or Honda being the better engine for 2018?
Dan the Man
2017-09-14 16:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
Makes sense, if one presumes Honda will eventually work and Renault will
fail.
In which case, does McLaren's switch look daft?
Starting from today, with the track record over the last three years, would
you bet on Renault or Honda being the better engine for 2018?
At this point, it is a crap shoot. VER's RBR/Renault has had its problems but not to the same degree as the McHondas. This is the silly season, though.
~misfit~
2017-09-15 01:39:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dan the Man
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
Makes sense, if one presumes Honda will eventually work and Renault
will fail.
In which case, does McLaren's switch look daft?
Starting from today, with the track record over the last three
years, would you bet on Renault or Honda being the better engine for
2018?
At this point, it is a crap shoot. VER's RBR/Renault has had its
problems but not to the same degree as the McHondas. This is the
silly season, though.
Very!
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
~misfit~
2017-09-15 01:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.


Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let them eat
Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda with Torro Rosso it
allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR as they now have a relationship
with another supplier. It wasn't possible for Renault to do this earlier as
there's an FIA rule which says no PU manufacturer may leave a team without a
PU supply (unless they're exiting F1).
Post by larkim
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
Makes sense, if one presumes Honda will eventually work and Renault
will fail.
One of us has serious comprehension issues because I read the article
completely differently.
Post by larkim
In which case, does McLaren's switch look daft?
No. They're relying on thier chassis to win races as long as they have a
reasonable PU. Currently the Renualt is reasonable (and improving) and the
Honda isn't. They've kept the Honda faith for a couple years already to no
avail.
Post by larkim
Starting from today, with the track record over the last three years,
would you bet on Renault or Honda being the better engine for 2018?
Renault.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bigbird
2017-09-15 06:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda with Torro
Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR as they now have a
relationship with another supplier. It wasn't possible for Renault to
do this earlier as there's an FIA rule which says no PU manufacturer
may leave a team without a PU supply (unless they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.

What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force. There were
meant to be new rules of supply in force from last year but actual
events suggest they were not in force.
~misfit~
2017-09-15 08:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda with Torro
Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR as they now have a
relationship with another supplier. It wasn't possible for Renault to
do this earlier as there's an FIA rule which says no PU manufacturer
may leave a team without a PU supply (unless they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same person and he's
shown he's not adverse to running Honda engines in at least one team. (I
know, different management etc. but I'm sure DM has the final say on big
decisions like this.)
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force. There
were meant to be new rules of supply in force from last year but
actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to remember something
about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a couple of years ago it was said
they couldn't legally stop supplying them as both Ferrari and Mercedes had
refused to suppy them. I guess that now Honda are no longer supplying
Mclaren (with their veto on who gets Honda PUs) - and are happy to supply
Torro Rosso that situation doesn't exist now.

From that BBC article:

"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018 is if they
were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team can be left without an
engine supplier."
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bigbird
2017-09-15 09:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda with
Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR as they
now have a relationship with another supplier. It wasn't possible
for Renault to do this earlier as there's an FIA rule which says
no PU manufacturer may leave a team without a PU supply (unless
they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same person and
he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda engines in at least one
team. (I know, different management etc. but I'm sure DM has the
final say on big decisions like this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force. There
were meant to be new rules of supply in force from last year but
actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to remember
something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a couple of years
ago it was said they couldn't legally stop supplying them as both
Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to suppy them. I guess that now
Honda are no longer supplying Mclaren (with their veto on who gets
Honda PUs) - and are happy to supply Torro Rosso that situation
doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018 is if
they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team can be left
without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority supplier,
I think.

"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY

Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who require
them from next season.

"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask the FIA
to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.

"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.

"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will be the
one that has to give a power unit.

"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide which will
supply."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work

So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would still be
in F1 and if do not have more customers could be 'encouraged' into
supplying RBR.
~misfit~
2017-09-15 13:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda with
Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR as they
now have a relationship with another supplier. It wasn't possible
for Renault to do this earlier as there's an FIA rule which says
no PU manufacturer may leave a team without a PU supply (unless
they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same person and
he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda engines in at least one
team. (I know, different management etc. but I'm sure DM has the
final say on big decisions like this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force. There
were meant to be new rules of supply in force from last year but
actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to remember
something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a couple of years
ago it was said they couldn't legally stop supplying them as both
Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to suppy them. I guess that now
Honda are no longer supplying Mclaren (with their veto on who gets
Honda PUs) - and are happy to supply Torro Rosso that situation
doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018 is if
they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team can be left
without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority
supplier, I think.
"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY
Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who require
them from next season.
"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask the
FIA to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.
"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.
"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will be the
one that has to give a power unit.
"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide which will
supply."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work
So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would still be
in F1 and if do not have more customers could be 'encouraged' into
supplying RBR.
Yep. The main thing is TR taking on Honda allowed Macca to move on. Macca
had the right to veto Honda supplying anyone else. Now they don't because TR
are Hondas primary customer not Macca....

That above-quoted speculative engine supply scenario from a May 2016 article
still wouldn't have allowed Renault to pull out of supplying RBR as they
would have then been required to re-supply them by the FIA due to Maccas
exclusivity deal with Honda - Renault would have been the minority supplier.
I doubt the FIA could have broken / did break that Macca / Honda contract or
it would have made the press.

TR taking on Honda (allowing Macca to divorce them) lead to Renault being
able to tell RBR to fuck themselves.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bigbird
2017-09-15 14:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda
with Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR
as they now have a relationship with another supplier. It
wasn't possible for Renault to do this earlier as there's an
FIA rule which says no PU manufacturer may leave a team
without a PU supply (unless they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same person
and he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda engines in at
least one team. (I know, different management etc. but I'm sure
DM has the final say on big decisions like this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force.
There were meant to be new rules of supply in force from last
year but actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to remember
something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a couple of
years ago it was said they couldn't legally stop supplying them
as both Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to suppy them. I guess
that now Honda are no longer supplying Mclaren (with their veto
on who gets Honda PUs) - and are happy to supply Torro Rosso that
situation doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018 is
if they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team can be
left without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority
supplier, I think.
"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY
Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who require
them from next season.
"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask the
FIA to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.
"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.
"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will be
the one that has to give a power unit.
"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide which
will supply."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would still
be in F1 and if do not have more customers could be 'encouraged'
into supplying RBR.
Yep. The main thing is TR taking on Honda allowed Macca to move on.
Macca had the right to veto Honda supplying anyone else.
Back before the new engine supply rules possibly but not since.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124339/honda-not-happy-with-enforced-supply-rules
~misfit~
2017-09-15 15:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing. Let
them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going Honda
with Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get rid of RBR
as they now have a relationship with another supplier. It
wasn't possible for Renault to do this earlier as there's an
FIA rule which says no PU manufacturer may leave a team
without a PU supply (unless they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in that
respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same person
and he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda engines in at
least one team. (I know, different management etc. but I'm sure
DM has the final say on big decisions like this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force.
There were meant to be new rules of supply in force from last
year but actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to remember
something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a couple of
years ago it was said they couldn't legally stop supplying them
as both Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to suppy them. I guess
that now Honda are no longer supplying Mclaren (with their veto
on who gets Honda PUs) - and are happy to supply Torro Rosso that
situation doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018 is
if they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team can be
left without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority
supplier, I think.
"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY
Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who require
them from next season.
"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask the
FIA to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.
"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.
"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will be
the one that has to give a power unit.
"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide which
will supply."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would still
be in F1 and if do not have more customers could be 'encouraged'
into supplying RBR.
Yep. The main thing is TR taking on Honda allowed Macca to move on.
Macca had the right to veto Honda supplying anyone else.
Back before the new engine supply rules possibly but not since.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124339/honda-not-happy-with-enforced-supply-rules
That's still well over a year old - and then full of maybes and perhapses.

AIUI the deal with McLaren stood and would have been messy for the FIA to
strong-arm the two parties out of. Avoidance of bad publicity and all that -
especially since the new owners took over.

Anyway it's a moot point now (but Renault telling RBR to go suck dick just
after the McLaren / Honda partnership is disolved lends credence to my
point).

I think that chances of Red Bull pulling out of F1 just got a little bit
higher.....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Bigbird
2017-09-15 15:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who
plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing.
Let them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going
Honda with Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get
rid of RBR as they now have a relationship with another
supplier. It wasn't possible for Renault to do this
earlier as there's an FIA rule which says no PU
manufacturer may leave a team without a PU supply (unless
they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in
that respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same
person and he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda
engines in at least one team. (I know, different management
etc. but I'm sure DM has the final say on big decisions like
this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force.
There were meant to be new rules of supply in force from
last year but actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to
remember something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a
couple of years ago it was said they couldn't legally stop
supplying them as both Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to
suppy them. I guess that now Honda are no longer supplying
Mclaren (with their veto on who gets Honda PUs) - and are
happy to supply Torro Rosso that situation doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018
is if they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team
can be left without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority
supplier, I think.
"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY
Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who
require them from next season.
"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask
the FIA to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.
"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.
"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will
be the one that has to give a power unit.
"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide
which will supply."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would
still be in F1 and if do not have more customers could be
'encouraged' into supplying RBR.
Yep. The main thing is TR taking on Honda allowed Macca to move
on. Macca had the right to veto Honda supplying anyone else.
Back before the new engine supply rules possibly but not since.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124339/honda-not-happy-with-enforced-supply-rules
Post by ~misfit~
That's still well over a year old
So? It post dates any mention of the veto and rebutts it's use.

You can't have it both ways.
~misfit~
2017-09-16 01:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
According toy YOU.
Your subject line is completely wrong! It's Renault who
plan to drop RBR.
Finally payback for all of that sniping and bad-mouthing.
Let them eat Honda.... Once RBR opened the door by going
Honda with Torro Rosso it allowed Renault to finally get
rid of RBR as they now have a relationship with another
supplier. It wasn't possible for Renault to do this
earlier as there's an FIA rule which says no PU
manufacturer may leave a team without a PU supply (unless
they're exiting F1).
RBR and TR are separate entities so there are no changes in
that respect.
Yep you're right. Howeever they're both owned by the same
person and he's shown he's not adverse to running Honda
engines in at least one team. (I know, different management
etc. but I'm sure DM has the final say on big decisions like
this.)
Quite, but that has no impact on the regulations ergo Renaults
obligations.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
What exact rule do you refer to and is it actually in force.
There were meant to be new rules of supply in force from
last year but actual events suggest they were not in force.
I don't read the pdfs that the FIA put out but I seem to
remember something about when RBR were bad-mouthing Renault a
couple of years ago it was said they couldn't legally stop
supplying them as both Ferrari and Mercedes had refused to
suppy them. I guess that now Honda are no longer supplying
Mclaren (with their veto on who gets Honda PUs) - and are
happy to supply Torro Rosso that situation doesn't exist now.
"The only way Renault would continue with Red Bull after 2018
is if they were forced to under F1 rules that dictate no team
can be left without an engine supplier."
...but for that to happen Renault would have to be a minority
supplier, I think.
"OBLIGATION TO SUPPLY
Manufacturers will be obliged to supply engines to teams who
require them from next season.
"The basic is that if you are a team with no offer, you can ask
the FIA to have one, and there is a system of ballot," said Lom.
"We will take the power units that have the smallest number of
customers.
"If there is only one [that has the fewest customers] this will
be the one that has to give a power unit.
"If there is more than one there will be a ballot to decide
which will supply."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124241/how-f1-new-engine-rules-will-work
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
So the only connection with the TR supply is that Honda would
still be in F1 and if do not have more customers could be
'encouraged' into supplying RBR.
Yep. The main thing is TR taking on Honda allowed Macca to move
on. Macca had the right to veto Honda supplying anyone else.
Back before the new engine supply rules possibly but not since.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/124339/honda-not-happy-with-enforced-supply-rules
Post by ~misfit~
That's still well over a year old
So? It post dates any mention of the veto and rebutts it's use.
"Any mention" where? (Rhetorical question.) I've heard it mentioned by Sky
reporters since then.
Post by Bigbird
You can't have it both ways.
I was merely making an observation, not doing a Baker. I've already spent
longer explaining what I meant than I intended to. You win. Snipping the
non-contentious (to you at least) part of my post makes it seem like I'm
just trying to argue - which I'm not at all. I'm interested in F1 news not
dicksizing.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-09-16 05:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I'm interested in F1 news not dicksizing
anymore.
Bigbird
2017-09-16 11:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ~misfit~
Post by ~misfit~
That's still well over a year old
So?
I was merely making an observation, not doing a Baker.
I'd say wasting peoples time with an unexplained irrelevancy could be
described precisely as "doing a Baker".

:)
t***@gmail.com
2017-09-16 19:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bigbird
I'd say wasting peoples time with an unexplained irrelevancy could be
described precisely as "doing a Baker".
I'd say you are a fucking idiot.

Sir Tim
2017-09-15 07:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
"Renault have told Red Bull they no longer want to supply them after next
season ..."

Doesn't sound to me like RBR dropping Renault!
--
Sir Tim
larkim
2017-09-16 19:40:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Yep you're of course right. Guilty as charged!
Edmund
2017-09-15 09:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larkim
According to the BBC...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41265779
Makes sense, if one presumes Honda will eventually work and Renault will
fail.
In which case, does McLaren's switch look daft?
Starting from today, with the track record over the last three years, would
you bet on Renault or Honda being the better engine for 2018?
Well no doubt after being sacked like this, Honda will likely spent an additional
billion in an attempt to recover from their embarrassment, that helps.
Having said that, our Japanese comedians have shown they are not exactly quick
in understanding ANYTHING, so as long they don't radically change their foolish
structure, it will mostly be wasted money.
So for next year, my guess is Renault will have the better PU.

Edmund
Loading...