Discussion:
Credit Where Due
(too old to reply)
D Munz
2017-07-30 18:36:09 UTC
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I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.

Good on you Lewis.

FWIW
DLM
News
2017-07-30 18:52:52 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he not done
so?

No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
geoff
2017-07-30 21:50:11 UTC
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Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I
do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas
today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on
the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he not done
so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
Given the huge gap HAM had opened up that BOT could close, it could have
been justified for the team to tell BOT he could have the place back "if
he could get somewhere vaguely close".

geoff
larkim
2017-07-31 07:41:48 UTC
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Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he not done
so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't we have
heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just checking you
will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It felt like they left the
choice to him, even if he may well have known that there were pre-agreed
rules of engagement in Toto's office which were clear about what he could
or should do in that circumstance.

Give the guy some credit, as he's said since - if those three points come
back to haunt him at the end of the season, it will look like very poor
decision making on his part as well as Mercedes.
Bobster
2017-07-31 08:41:26 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he not done
so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't we have
heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just checking you
will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It felt like they left the
choice to him, even if he may well have known that there were pre-agreed
rules of engagement in Toto's office which were clear about what he could
or should do in that circumstance.
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.

So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
Post by larkim
Give the guy some credit, as he's said since - if those three points come
back to haunt him at the end of the season, it will look like very poor
decision making on his part as well as Mercedes.
larkim
2017-07-31 11:10:44 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
Post by News
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't we have
heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just checking you
will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It felt like they left the
choice to him, even if he may well have known that there were pre-agreed
rules of engagement in Toto's office which were clear about what he could
or should do in that circumstance.
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
Yep, heard that one. If you were being hyper-critical of Hamilton (Edmund?)
you might argue that Hamilton left Bottas to the wolves, on the off chance
that Verstappen came past Bottas, which is why Hamilton left it until the
last lap. But I think that would uncharitable. He did the right thing by
his teammate, and given that it puts him within a DNF of being overtaken
by Bottas I think it was a very mature (and potentially risky) thing to have
done.
Hornplayer9599
2017-07-31 13:33:27 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers)
but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to
Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and
leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he
not done so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't
we have heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just
checking you will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It
felt like they left the choice to him, even if he may well have
known that there were pre-agreed rules of engagement in Toto's
office which were clear about what he could or should do in that
circumstance.
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it,
but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
Post by larkim
Give the guy some credit, as he's said since - if those three
points come back to haunt him at the end of the season, it will
look like very poor decision making on his part as well as Mercedes.
I think there was another call earlier than that...not to long after
Bottas let Hamilton by. It sounded like a strategy session between the
pit and Hamilton, and at the end, the pit wall told him something
like,"you have five laps, then we'll flip back". Of course, they may
have been referring to switch positions on the steering wheel. Later
on the pit wll told him that he has "another five laps".
--
I don’t judge people based on color, race, religion, sexuality,
gender, ability, or size.
I base it on whether or not they’re an asshole.
Edmund
2017-07-31 14:28:20 UTC
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Post by Hornplayer9599
Post by Bobster
Post by larkim
Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers)
but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to
Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and
leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he
not done so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't
we have heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just
checking you will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It
felt like they left the choice to him, even if he may well have
known that there were pre-agreed rules of engagement in Toto's
office which were clear about what he could or should do in that
circumstance.
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it,
but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
Post by larkim
Give the guy some credit, as he's said since - if those three
points come back to haunt him at the end of the season, it will
look like very poor decision making on his part as well as Mercedes.
I think there was another call earlier than that...not to long after
Bottas let Hamilton by. It sounded like a strategy session between the
pit and Hamilton, and at the end, the pit wall told him something
like,"you have five laps, then we'll flip back". Of course, they may
have been referring to switch positions on the steering wheel. Later
on the pit wll told him that he has "another five laps".
What we heard here :

Ham said he didn't understand why those guys in front of him where driving so slowly.
Some complaining... and he wanted Bottas to move over, which he did a little later.
Then there was the "you've got 5 laps .... " after those 5 laps and a couple more he
still was behind Kimi.
A little later he again got 5 laps ( with probably higher engine settings ) these 5
laps and maybe more didn't result in overtaking Kimi either.
The Merc team said to Bottas to keep close in case they wanted to give his place back but
it did not look like Merc really had that intention, there was no -you got 5 laps- message
for Bottas.
Now Ham giving back that place to Bottas, who would have thought that, I guess no one.
Anyway I can appreciate it.

Edmund
geoff
2017-07-31 19:54:42 UTC
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On 1/08/2017 2:28 AM, Edmund wrote:
t
Post by Edmund
it did not look like Merc really had that intention, there was no -you got 5 laps- message
for Bottas.
Now Ham giving back that place to Bottas, who would have thought that, I guess no one.
Anyway I can appreciate it.
Imagine if VER *and* ALO had managed to slip past HAM !

geoff
Naked Fame
2017-08-06 13:17:16 UTC
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Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
--
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keithr0
2017-08-07 03:29:16 UTC
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Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.

It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Alan Baker
2017-08-07 03:32:37 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Yup.

Effusive praise and surprise for Hamilton simply doing the reasonable
thing and keeping his word.
Bobster
2017-08-07 14:02:17 UTC
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Post by Alan Baker
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Yup.
Effusive praise and surprise for Hamilton simply doing the reasonable
thing and keeping his word.
Hamilton has not been exactly saintly over his career. He has lied to the stewards, put technical data in the public domain without the team's consent, and most infamously went against a team agreement to screw over Alonso at Budapest in 2007. He also foul mouthed his then team boss.

Now, all that was in the past. People can grow up or decide to change their ways. But I don't think that honourable behaviour from Hamilton should be taken for granted.

Which may make it worth commenting on when it happens.
Bruce Hoult
2017-08-07 14:30:57 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by Alan Baker
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Yup.
Effusive praise and surprise for Hamilton simply doing the reasonable
thing and keeping his word.
Hamilton has not been exactly saintly over his career. He has lied to the stewards, put technical data in the public domain without the team's consent, and most infamously went against a team agreement to screw over Alonso at Budapest in 2007. He also foul mouthed his then team boss.
Now, all that was in the past. People can grow up or decide to change their ways. But I don't think that honourable behaviour from Hamilton should be taken for granted.
Which may make it worth commenting on when it happens.
When was the last WDC who acted honourably at all times? (or as close to it as can be expected)

2009?
2007?
1998&1999?
1996?
Bobster
2017-08-07 18:36:09 UTC
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Post by Bruce Hoult
Post by Bobster
Post by Alan Baker
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Yup.
Effusive praise and surprise for Hamilton simply doing the reasonable
thing and keeping his word.
Hamilton has not been exactly saintly over his career. He has lied to the stewards, put technical data in the public domain without the team's consent, and most infamously went against a team agreement to screw over Alonso at Budapest in 2007. He also foul mouthed his then team boss.
Now, all that was in the past. People can grow up or decide to change their ways. But I don't think that honourable behaviour from Hamilton should be taken for granted.
Which may make it worth commenting on when it happens.
When was the last WDC who acted honourably at all times? (or as close to it as can be expected)
2009?
2007?
1998&1999?
1996?
My point was that Hamilton is no saint. Whether any of them are is a better discussion.

Pressure is the thing. There weren't major shenanigans in 1996, but Hill was never really under pressure.

A better question is who was under pressure and still was more concerned about how the game is played than winning it - and won.

This is why I like Frank Williams. In the aftermath of Jerez '96 it was put to Jock Clear that whilst Ferrari had clearly been doing some questionable things, surely Williams had played that game too.

Clear said, no. He said that at the start of every season, Sir Frank calls the team leadership together and tells them how his team is going to go racing. He draws a line that they don't cross, and he doesn't care if other teams cross the line and prosper, his team don't race that way.
Naked Fame
2017-08-08 14:07:58 UTC
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Post by Bobster
This is why I like Frank Williams. In the aftermath of Jerez '96 it
was put to Jock Clear that whilst Ferrari had clearly been doing some
questionable things, surely Williams had played that game too.
Clear said, no. He said that at the start of every season, Sir Frank
calls the team leadership together and tells them how his team is
going to go racing. He draws a line that they don't cross, and he
doesn't care if other teams cross the line and prosper, his team don't
race that way.
Hats of to Frank Williams. I appreciate that.

Still:

"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."
- Cersei Lannister
--
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~misfit~
2017-08-07 03:40:55 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton *isn't*.
Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might want to make a point
of this.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
keithr0
2017-08-07 09:33:07 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton *isn't*.
Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might want to make a point
of this.
It's getting a bit overdone though.
geoff
2017-08-07 20:08:05 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton *isn't*.
Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might want to make a point
of this.
It's getting a bit overdone though.
Possibly overdone because of the extreme degree of the give-back.

One would assume that the deal would have been applicable to give the
place back 'if they were still effectively racing each other'. But they
weren't, and HAM just about had to park up for a quick cup of tea to
allow BOT to catch up and get past. All while avoiding the following car
not to gizzump HAM too.

That's why it is being 'over-done'.

geoff
~misfit~
2017-08-07 23:45:52 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us
back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being
poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton
*isn't*. Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might
want to make a point of this.
It's getting a bit overdone though.
We're all entitled to our opinions. The danger comes when we fool ourselves
into thinking they are canon.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
keithr0
2017-08-08 11:18:54 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us
back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being
poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton
*isn't*. Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might
want to make a point of this.
It's getting a bit overdone though.
We're all entitled to our opinions. The danger comes when we fool ourselves
into thinking they are canon.
That would go for everybody that posts there, but do you only apply it
to those who express opinions contrary to your own?
~misfit~
2017-08-09 03:34:19 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car,
on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite
all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no,
switch us back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose
to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move
Hamilton has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri
raised my respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly
gentlemanly (if that is a word). I now have a new respect for
him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo
did exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise
being poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton
*isn't*. Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might
want to make a point of this.
It's getting a bit overdone though.
We're all entitled to our opinions. The danger comes when we fool
ourselves into thinking they are canon.
That would go for everybody that posts there, but do you only apply it
to those who express opinions contrary to your own?
No, only to those who feel the need to repeat the same opinion multiple
times in the same thread. That starts to look like they have an axe to
grind, at least to me.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
keithr0
2017-08-07 09:36:05 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter? It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody with
a profile as high as Hamilton.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton *isn't*.
Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might want to make a point
of this.
~misfit~
2017-08-08 00:01:17 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
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Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us
back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being
poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter?
Because it does. "Should" is a luxury for philosophers and a staple of
people with an axe to grind.
Post by keithr0
It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody
with a profile as high as Hamilton.
Right. So it *is* about who rather than what. I take it you're absolutely
disgusted at Vettel for deliberately banging wheels with Hamilton and will
never speak his name again without spitting?
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
True. However a very vocal group keep insisting that Hamilton
*isn't*. Therefore it's no surprise that reasonable people might
want to make a point of this.
keithr0
2017-08-08 11:17:35 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on
fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of
it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us
back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton
has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my
respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that
is a word). I now have a new respect for him - not that it matters
to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being
poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter?
Because it does. "Should" is a luxury for philosophers and a staple of
people with an axe to grind.
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over so
that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place back if
you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation existed.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody
with a profile as high as Hamilton.
Right. So it *is* about who rather than what. I take it you're absolutely
disgusted at Vettel for deliberately banging wheels with Hamilton and will
never speak his name again without spitting?
No more disgusted than at Hamilton running Rosberg off the track.
Bobster
2017-08-08 13:20:46 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
people with an axe to grind.
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over so
that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place back if
you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation existed.
Pressure changes things. It's much easier to get the Sauber drivers to hold places, not pass each other and generally do what the team wants rather than what they want because there's no championship at stake.

In cricket, you might find it easy to walk on, say, 23, but how about on 99? You'd think harder, the little devil on your shoulder would be shouting louder.

Pressure changes everything in sports. Things you would do easily when there was little at stake become harder. Things that wouldn't even occur to you when there's little at stake start to look like options.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody
with a profile as high as Hamilton.
Right. So it *is* about who rather than what. I take it you're absolutely
disgusted at Vettel for deliberately banging wheels with Hamilton and will
never speak his name again without spitting?
No more disgusted than at Hamilton running Rosberg off the track.
geoff
2017-08-08 20:07:30 UTC
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Post by keithr0
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over so
that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place back if
you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation existed.
So if BOT had for some reason fallen back to, say, ninth, HAM should
have felt obliged to fall back to tenth?

geoff
~misfit~
2017-08-09 03:51:52 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car,
on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite
all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no,
switch us back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose
to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move
Hamilton has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri
raised my respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly
gentlemanly (if that is a word). I now have a new respect for
him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo
did exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise
being poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter?
Because it does. "Should" is a luxury for philosophers and a staple
of people with an axe to grind.
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over
so that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place
back if you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation
existed.
Hamilton didn't ask Bottas to 'move over'. Please stick to the facts. Did
Hamilton suggest it to the team? Did he then say he'd give the place back if
he failed to better his position? Hamiton can't ask Bottas anything, the
radio only goes to the pits, not to Bottas.

Hamilton was much faster than Bottas at that stage of the race. If the team
hadn't arranged the swap then Hamilton would likely have tried to pass
Bottas. At that point Bottas would have had a choice, concede the place and
settle for fourth or fight his team mate and risk them both falling back
into the clutches of Verstappen. - not a good idea.

In that scenario if Hamilton had got past (which I think likely) and Bottas,
having fought him, with less rubber and fuel would have likey lost the place
to Verstappen. The other possible outcome was one or both Mercedes being
damaged.

Bottas was lucky it was Hamilton behind him and the team made that deal (and
Hamilton was able to give the place back without either or both of them
being passed by Verstappen) because otherwise there wasn't much chance of
him keeping third place.

IMO.
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody
with a profile as high as Hamilton.
Right. So it *is* about who rather than what. I take it you're
absolutely disgusted at Vettel for deliberately banging wheels with
Hamilton and will never speak his name again without spitting?
No more disgusted than at Hamilton running Rosberg off the track.
Bias noted.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-08-09 04:54:28 UTC
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Bias noted
note this. You are a deluxe cunt
Bobster
2017-08-09 05:02:00 UTC
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Post by keithr0
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Post by keithr0
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car,
on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite
all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no,
switch us back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose
to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move
Hamilton has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri
raised my respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly
gentlemanly (if that is a word). I now have a new respect for
him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo
did exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise
being poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter?
Because it does. "Should" is a luxury for philosophers and a staple
of people with an axe to grind.
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over
so that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place
back if you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation
existed.
Hamilton didn't ask Bottas to 'move over'. Please stick to the facts. Did
Hamilton suggest it to the team? Did he then say he'd give the place back if
he failed to better his position? Hamiton can't ask Bottas anything, the
radio only goes to the pits, not to Bottas.
Nitpicking. Hamilton asked the team to ask Bottas. We all know that. They don't have time for Whatsapp whilst driving.
Post by ~misfit~
Hamilton was much faster than Bottas at that stage of the race. If the team
hadn't arranged the swap then Hamilton would likely have tried to pass
Bottas.
Why hadn't he tried then? Same reason Raikkonen didn't pass Vettel on the road - overtaking wasn't that easy, especially if the driver ahead felt like defending. And there was no reason why Bottas should concede the place to Hamilton. Probably this is why Hamilton made the request - the chances of passing Bottas were not great.
Post by ~misfit~
At that point Bottas would have had a choice, concede the place and
settle for fourth or fight his team mate and risk them both falling back
into the clutches of Verstappen. - not a good idea.
Depends when it happened. Verstappen had a penalty to overcome, and it wasn't until later in the race - as we heard the team report to Hamilton - that he became a possible threat to Bottas.
Post by ~misfit~
In that scenario if Hamilton had got past (which I think likely) and Bottas,
having fought him, with less rubber and fuel would have likey lost the place
to Verstappen. The other possible outcome was one or both Mercedes being
damaged.
Well, these calls have to be made in realtime, but it didn't look that likely a scenario at the time Hamilton made his request, and as things turned out, Verstappen, unaffected by the goings on at Merc, was not able to pass Bottas.
Post by ~misfit~
Bottas was lucky it was Hamilton behind him and the team made that deal (and
Hamilton was able to give the place back without either or both of them
being passed by Verstappen) because otherwise there wasn't much chance of
him keeping third place.
See above.
geoff
2017-08-09 06:41:36 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Hamilton was much faster than Bottas at that stage of the race. If the team
hadn't arranged the swap then Hamilton would likely have tried to pass
Bottas.
Why hadn't he tried then? Same reason Raikkonen didn't pass Vettel on the road - overtaking wasn't that easy, especially if the driver ahead felt like defending. And there was no reason why Bottas should concede the place to Hamilton. Probably this is why Hamilton made the request - the chances of passing Bottas were not great.
And the chances of that stuffing up the race for BOTH of them was
higher. The team figured that. Easy decision.

geoff
keithr0
2017-08-09 10:24:52 UTC
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Post by keithr0
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Post by keithr0
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him
and said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car,
on fresher tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite
all of it, but it certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no,
switch us back. So he could have got out of the deal but chose
to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move
Hamilton has made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri
raised my respect for him quite a bit. That was superbly
gentlemanly (if that is a word). I now have a new respect for
him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo
did exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise
being poured in him for that.
Was Dan in a close fight for the WDC that year?
Why should that matter?
Because it does. "Should" is a luxury for philosophers and a staple
of people with an axe to grind.
What is the reason that it does? You ask your team mate to move over
so that you can chase the guy in front and offer to give the place
back if you fail to do so. Hamilton failed to do so, so an obligation
existed.
Hamilton didn't ask Bottas to 'move over'. Please stick to the facts. Did
Hamilton suggest it to the team? Did he then say he'd give the place back if
he failed to better his position? Hamiton can't ask Bottas anything, the
radio only goes to the pits, not to Bottas.
He asked or suggested to the team that he should be let past, and that
he would give the place back if he couldn't improve his position.
Post by ~misfit~
Hamilton was much faster than Bottas at that stage of the race. If the team
hadn't arranged the swap then Hamilton would likely have tried to pass
Bottas. At that point Bottas would have had a choice, concede the place and
settle for fourth or fight his team mate and risk them both falling back
into the clutches of Verstappen. - not a good idea.
That would have been Bottas' or the team strategists decision.
Post by ~misfit~
In that scenario if Hamilton had got past (which I think likely) and Bottas,
having fought him, with less rubber and fuel would have likey lost the place
to Verstappen. The other possible outcome was one or both Mercedes being
damaged.
Pure speculation.
Post by ~misfit~
Bottas was lucky it was Hamilton behind him and the team made that deal (and
Hamilton was able to give the place back without either or both of them
being passed by Verstappen) because otherwise there wasn't much chance of
him keeping third place.
IMO.
As you say IYO.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
It's a matter of keeping your word, and fair
sportsmanship. It should be expected of anybody especially anybody
with a profile as high as Hamilton.
Right. So it *is* about who rather than what.
Nope, *ANYBODY* with a similar profile, I'd apply the same to any of the
experienced drivers.
Post by ~misfit~
Post by keithr0
Post by ~misfit~
I take it you're
absolutely disgusted at Vettel for deliberately banging wheels with
Hamilton and will never speak his name again without spitting?
No more disgusted than at Hamilton running Rosberg off the track.
Bias noted.
What is biased about that? Vettel shouldn't have done it, he lost his
temper, but in the long term he didn't hurt Hamiltons race. Had he done
it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even have
raised an eyebrow. OTOH Hamilton deliberately drove his team mate off
the road in order to take the place.

Obviously you are biased in Hamiltons favour.
geoff
2017-08-09 11:04:02 UTC
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Post by keithr0
What is biased about that? Vettel shouldn't have done it, he lost his
temper, but in the long term he didn't hurt Hamiltons race. Had he done
it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even have
raised an eyebrow.
Absolute fucking bullshit. To suggest that is extremely offensive, and
demonstrates how removed from reality you bias has pushed you.

geoff
geoff
2017-08-09 11:07:28 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by keithr0
What is biased about that? Vettel shouldn't have done it, he lost his
temper, but in the long term he didn't hurt Hamiltons race. Had he
done it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even
have raised an eyebrow.
Absolute fucking bullshit. To suggest that is extremely offensive, and
demonstrates how removed from reality you bias has pushed you.
geoff
Typo "your".

Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.

geoff
Bobster
2017-08-09 13:08:50 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by geoff
Post by keithr0
What is biased about that? Vettel shouldn't have done it, he lost his
temper, but in the long term he didn't hurt Hamiltons race. Had he
done it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even
have raised an eyebrow.
Absolute fucking bullshit. To suggest that is extremely offensive, and
demonstrates how removed from reality you bias has pushed you.
geoff
Typo "your".
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
geoff
2017-08-09 19:59:44 UTC
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Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?

geoff
Naked Fame
2017-08-09 23:48:48 UTC
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Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a
fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
It appears that he did it at least twice:
- Deliberately hit Hamilton in Spa 2011 during qualifying
- 5-place grid penalty
- Reprimand to Hamilton for provoking MAL
- Deliberately hit Perez in Monaco 2012 during final free practice
- 10-place grid penalty

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Belgian_Grand_Prix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Monaco_Grand_Prix
--
Signature
Bobster
2017-08-10 02:25:50 UTC
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Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi

Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then when they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not just Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.

This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were picking on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of Spa, he'd received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with Massa, then, on his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado - again it looked like recklessness. He got a post race penalty for that, but Maldonado might not have been impressed as he was out of the race and out of potential points.

Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident at Spa was not all about Maldonado.
Sir Tim
2017-08-10 06:46:10 UTC
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Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair
sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the
incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then when
they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not just
Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were picking
on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of Spa, he'd
received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with Massa, then, on
his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado - again it looked like
recklessness. He got a post race penalty for that, but Maldonado might
not have been impressed as he was out of the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident at
Spa was not all about Maldonado.
I remember it as being quite egregious on Maldonado's part, but perhaps
that is just my pro-Hamilton bias showing.
--
Sir Tim
Bobster
2017-08-10 07:49:36 UTC
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Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair
sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the
incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then when
they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not just
Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were picking
on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of Spa, he'd
received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with Massa, then, on
his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado - again it looked like
recklessness. He got a post race penalty for that, but Maldonado might
not have been impressed as he was out of the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident at
Spa was not all about Maldonado.
I remember it as being quite egregious on Maldonado's part, but perhaps
that is just my pro-Hamilton bias showing.
That's how I remembered it too. But when I watched the video this morning I was surprised. And Hamilton was deemed by the stewards to be partly to blame for the incident.
News
2017-08-10 12:42:29 UTC
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Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would have
objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then when they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not just Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were picking on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of Spa, he'd received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with Massa, then, on his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado - again it looked like recklessness. He got a post race penalty for that, but Maldonado might not have been impressed as he was out of the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident at Spa was not all about Maldonado.
Such a special snowflake, that HAM...
Bigbird
2017-08-10 15:21:37 UTC
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Post by News
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would
have objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be
a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one
reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the
incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then
when they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not
just Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were
picking on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of
Spa, he'd received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with
Massa, then, on his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado -
again it looked like recklessness. He got a post race penalty for
that, but Maldonado might not have been impressed as he was out of
the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident
at Spa was not all about Maldonado.
Such a special snowflake, that HAM...
Such a prick, that Redneck...
~misfit~
2017-08-12 02:54:03 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Post by News
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would
have objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be
a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one
reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the
incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then
when they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not
just Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were
picking on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of
Spa, he'd received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with
Massa, then, on his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado -
again it looked like recklessness. He got a post race penalty for
that, but Maldonado might not have been impressed as he was out of
the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident
at Spa was not all about Maldonado.
Such a special snowflake, that HAM...
Such a prick, that Redneck...
More like a prick receptacle - and not special at all...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)
t***@gmail.com
2017-08-12 04:44:21 UTC
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Post by ~misfit~
Post by Bigbird
Post by News
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Post by Bobster
Post by geoff
Shit - even if he had done that to MAL pretty much all would
have objected just as strongly.
That's pushing it a bit far. In such a case, I think there'd be
a fair sprinkling of comments about as one sows so shall one
reap.
Did MAL ever deliberately hit anybody ?
I was going to cite Spa 2011, but I just googled for a clip of the
incident and it's not as straightforward as I remembered.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkrtpi
Firstly there was Hamilton getting reckless at the bus stop, then
when they come out of La Source and then come together, it is not
just Maldonado driving into Hamilton, both cars move.
This was in the same season when Hamilton said the stewards were
picking on him because he's black. More significantly, in terms of
Spa, he'd received a drive through at Monaco for a collision with
Massa, then, on his way back through the field, he hit Maldonado -
again it looked like recklessness. He got a post race penalty for
that, but Maldonado might not have been impressed as he was out of
the race and out of potential points.
Hamilton is no stranger to a bit of argey bargey, and that incident
at Spa was not all about Maldonado.
Such a special snowflake, that HAM...
Such a prick, that Redneck...
More like a prick receptacle
Like your diseased asshole?
Post by ~misfit~
- and not special at all...
You would fuck it.

Martin Harran
2017-08-09 13:03:41 UTC
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Post by geoff
Post by keithr0
What is biased about that? Vettel shouldn't have done it, he lost his
temper, but in the long term he didn't hurt Hamiltons race. Had he done
it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even have
raised an eyebrow.
Absolute fucking bullshit. To suggest that is extremely offensive, and
demonstrates how removed from reality you bias has pushed you.
+1
Bigbird
2017-08-09 13:02:36 UTC
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Post by Alan LeHun
Had he
done it to anybody other than Hamilton, few around here would even
have raised an eyebrow. OTOH Hamilton deliberately drove his team
mate off the road in order to take the place.
Not that it wasn't already pretty clear but you have just confined all
your comments to the bin of worthlessness.
t***@gmail.com
2017-08-09 15:07:34 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Not that it wasn't already pretty clear but you have just confined all
your comments to the bin of worthlessness.
Speaking of worthless
News
2017-08-07 11:43:36 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
... making that HAM did it surprising.

Noted too, the A/P is back.
Naked Fame
2017-08-08 14:05:15 UTC
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Post by keithr0
Post by Naked Fame
Post by Bobster
There was an earlier call that we did hear. The team called him and
said that there was a threat from Verstappen in a fast car, on fresher
tyres and closing in on Bottas. I didn't get quite all of it, but it
certainly ended with Hamilton saying "no, switch us back.
So he could have got out of the deal but chose to honor it.
I am in the gang who haven't always appreciated every move Hamilton has
made over his career, but what he did to Valtteri raised my respect for
him quite a bit. That was superbly gentlemanly (if that is a word). I
now have a new respect for him - not that it matters to him, of course.
It's not exactly the first time that it has been done, Ricciardo did
exactly the same thing for Kvyat, I don't remember praise being poured
in him for that.
I've always considered Ricciardo a team player so I would expect him
to do that.
Post by keithr0
It's just what should be expected of any reasonable team player.
Yes, and I didn't expect that from Hamilton. Doing the decent thing
changed my negative perception of him a bit for the better. I've
disliked him for a long time, but I am not passionate about it, so I
am quite happy to change my opinion of him for the better.
--
Signature
alister
2017-07-31 09:54:09 UTC
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Post by larkim
Post by News
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I
do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas
today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points
on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW DLM
What real choice did HAM have? How would Toto have acted had he not
done so?
No points awarded for mandatory compliance.
I'm not entirely sure he was ordered to do this, otherwise wouldn't we
have heard something on the radio on the last lap ("Lewis, just checking
you will be giving Valteri the place back" etc etc)? It felt like they
left the choice to him, even if he may well have known that there were
pre-agreed rules of engagement in Toto's office which were clear about
what he could or should do in that circumstance.
Give the guy some credit, as he's said since - if those three points
come back to haunt him at the end of the season, it will look like very
poor decision making on his part as well as Mercedes.
on the other hand Ham is probably aware of the possibility that he may
need Bottas to assist him in the later races of the championship.
it would be unwise to break his word know & risk loosing that assistance.
common sense applied by all drivers.
--
A farmer is a man outstanding in his field.
Bigbird
2017-07-31 10:14:36 UTC
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Post by alister
on the other hand Ham is probably aware of the possibility that he
may need Bottas to assist him in the later races of the championship.
it would be unwise to break his word know & risk loosing that
assistance. common sense applied by all drivers.
Of course with the gap narrowing it is more likely that co-operation
rather than assistance will be their biggest strength.
Naked Fame
2017-08-06 13:20:07 UTC
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Post by alister
on the other hand Ham is probably aware of the possibility that he may
need Bottas to assist him in the later races of the championship.
it would be unwise to break his word know & risk loosing that assistance.
common sense applied by all drivers.
This is true. Nevertheless, he kept his promise in a very high-stress
situation which I appreciate a lot. And, naturally, the good team
spirit certainly got even better, and that probably benefits all at
Mercedes and leads them to greater motivation and results. Very good
move from Hamilton. Hats off.
--
Signature
Alan LeHun
2017-07-30 19:00:09 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
He didn't have any option. Firstly, because of recent negative press,
but mostly because he may need Bottas's help again this season.

Had he not given it back, /that/ woud have been a surprise.
--
Alan LeHun
.
2017-07-30 20:40:39 UTC
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Post by Alan LeHun
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
He didn't have any option. Firstly, because of recent negative press,
Of which he's proven, by his actions time and again, not to care about.
Post by Alan LeHun
but mostly because he may need Bottas's help again this season.
No, as he said, he did it because he: said he would and keeps his word.
Post by Alan LeHun
Had he not given it back, /that/ woud have been a surprise.
As the even the broadcast commentators mentioned, it wouldn't
have been at all unusual (particularly under the circumstances
of another driver quickly closing on his teammate), for a driver
to *not* give the position back.
--
My mirror continues its finite yet unbounded journey.
Bobster
2017-07-31 02:33:54 UTC
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Post by Alan LeHun
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
He didn't have any option. Firstly, because of recent negative press,
but mostly because he may need Bottas's help again this season.
Had he not given it back, /that/ woud have been a surprise.
Well, he was a long way up the road and Verstappen was closing fast on Bottas, so he could have said things like "if he can get close to me" or "it's risky but I'll try but I won't give away the team's points", but he didn't do anything like that.

I'm not a fan, but yesterday he was very much the good egg.
jtees4
2017-07-30 22:35:18 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
FWIW
DLM
I am not a Hamilton fan by any stretch, and I totally agree with you!
Bigbird
2017-07-31 09:32:34 UTC
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Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I
do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas
today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points
on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
I think the team made the right choices in both asking VB to let Lewis
have a crack at the Ferraris and making the switch back as per the
"deal".

To not have done so would have been bad for team dynamics and worse for
PR and the teams reputation.

It's going to be difficult enough to manage their drivers without
giving one a huge chip on his shoulder.

I thought it was doubtful that LH could make a clean pass on Kimi but
he did make Kimi feel the pressure and it could have produced an
opportunity.
geoff
2017-07-31 19:52:02 UTC
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Post by Bigbird
Post by D Munz
I'm generally neutral on Lewis (I simply prefer other drivers) but I
do want to give him credit for returning the position to Bottas
today. That was clearly a risky move in the race and leaves points
on the table for the overall title.
Good on you Lewis.
I think the team made the right choices in both asking VB to let Lewis
have a crack at the Ferraris and making the switch back as per the
"deal".
To not have done so would have been bad for team dynamics and worse for
PR and the teams reputation.
It's going to be difficult enough to manage their drivers without
giving one a huge chip on his shoulder.
Unless BOT was hot on HAM's heels I don't think there would have been
any bad feeling (or cause for such) if he switch back hadn't taken place.

geoff
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